Transfer portal and NIL Money, how they have changed college sports".

[Poppa San]

I've wondered recently why the power 5 conferences even pretend to listen to the NCAA. I expect in a decade or three there to be the 4-5 big conferences with 20-25 schools in each. They'll tell the NCAA to shove it and set up their own governing body. The NCAA will exist to mediate the rest of the 200 or so schools with athletics. It'll go the way of the NAIA.

 

[Voyageur]

I've wondered recently why the power 5 conferences even pretend to listen to the NCAA. I expect in a decade or three there to be the 4-5 big conferences with 20-25 schools in each. They'll tell the NCAA to shove it and set up their own governing body. The NCAA will exist to mediate the rest of the 200 or so schools with athletics. It'll go the way of the NAIA.

Sadly, you're probably right. Maybe less time than that, the way it looks.

 

[SeahawkFan80]

Thank you for this thread. You all are insightful.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I've wondered recently why the power 5 conferences even pretend to listen to the NCAA. I expect in a decade or three there to be the 4-5 big conferences with 20-25 schools in each. They'll tell the NCAA to shove it and set up their own governing body. The NCAA will exist to mediate the rest of the 200 or so schools with athletics. It'll go the way of the NAIA.

Yeah those top conferences go their own way. And who is going to argue with them? They bring in the most network and ad $$$s. Money is power and power wins.

 

[Altheparkguy]

You mean ruined it!!! They get an education that everyone else is paying for the rest of their lives. They are using the schools (as prep and marketing for the pros) just as much as the schools are using them. NCAA needs to fix this Pronto! Transfer Portal and NIL! It's leaking down into HS now. CRAZY!

 

[El Guapo]

While I agree that the transfer portal and NIL is killing college sports, the tired notion that a scholarship is all players deserve is just not true for the majority.

Sure, the ones who go into pro sports and make big money don't need the scholarships in hindsight. However, the reality is that many of these players are not able to truly take advantage of the education. [I'll make the distinction that I am generally talking about student-athletes in the major sports] Sure graduation rates have increased significantly over the past decades, but many do not graduate with usable degrees and education. There aren't tons of student-athletes graduating with engineering, medical, and other professional degrees. They are setup for failure because many aren't prepared to take advantage of the education in the first place. It's like giving a steak to someone without teeth, and feeling content that you gave them something of value. Players then encounter all of the pressures and demands of college sports training/schedules, which limits their ability to truly achieve a level of higher learning. So while they might graduate with a degree, what jobs are they getting afterward with a geology degree? My apologies to all of the geologists out there.

To those who say that is the players' faults for not taking advantage of the situation, I say phooey. Fans and universities use players for sports and monetary gains, and then push them away with often useless degrees. Throw on top of that all of the life-long injuries that players sustain with no support once they are done. It's a bleak outcome for many athletes.

I don't like the current portal and NIL model at all. However, we owe it to these athletes to establish a support structure for injuries and post-playing education. Once these 20yr olds go out into the world, realize that their dreams didn't materialize and that their primary opportunity for education is now gone, they are resigned to scrapping by. With all of the money in college sports, we could be doing a lot better. Pro athletes don't have to squeeze in a college education while playing every week. Yet we expect 18 and 19 year olds to perform at their peak while also taking a full class load.

They should let athletes be athletes while eligible, and then give them the opportunity to truly begin or continue their education (on full scholarship) once their playing days are over. I believe that they should be paid for all of the blood, sweat, and energy that they put into supporting the business of college sports. I don't like that the universities get to keep all of the current revenues, while fans are asked to pay even more to support NIL initiatives. The greed needs to stop, but by no means are the players being greedy. They want and deserve a piece of the pie. If anything, let the players choose between a scholarship education or the salaried equivalent. See how many choose the cash option.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The thing you have to remember about NIL money, is that most of the "large" payouts are going to the top athletes in their sport. Most of whom I assume are on a trajectory to get a decent size payday when they turn Pro in that sport. So for those, NIL is just an early payday, one that isn't tied to performance, but tied more to their potential abilities.

The "lessor" athletes may get a $1000 here or there, but that's not much different then an educational grant from 3M paid to a top scholar. A top scholar that may be on a free ride already, and whose research is likely making their University a lot of money.

I don't know the percentages, but even in the Big 3 Sports (Football, Basketball, Hockey), it is a surprisingly low % of athletes that go on to pro careers. So to say that "these athletes deserve more than a free ride at their college, because they make the school money and sacrifice a potential education while doing it", isn't a good argument to me. Some of those athletes are at a university because athletics basically IS their major. If they succeed, great. If they don't and leave school with or without a diploma, welcome to life! Non-athletes face this situation all the time. Either not smart enough to get into a college, not enough money, life situations, etc.

From my understanding of NIL, it isn't the University that is directly paying the money, it is an outside donor. So fans aren't necessarily paying more because of it, but you might if you buy a car, from a local dealership that forked over $100k in NIL.

I'm fine with NIL and the Transfer Portal, but with caps and limits. Cap the amount a single athlete and program can receive. Limit the # of TP's that each program can receive/accept each year, make it a % of a full roster.

Left unchecked, the TP and NIL is basically like saying to the NFL, "There are no cap limits and contracts can only be 1 year, everyone is a FA after each season." Imagine how a small market team like the Packers would look in 5 years, after that was initiated.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The thing you have to remember about NIL money, is that most of the "large" payouts are going to the top athletes in their sport. Most of whom I assume are on a trajectory to get a decent size payday when they turn Pro in that sport. So for those, NIL is just an early payday, one that isn't tied to performance, but tied more to their potential abilities.

The "lessor" athletes may get a $1000 here or there, but that's not much different then an educational grant from 3M paid to a top scholar. A top scholar that may be on a free ride already, and whose research is likely making their University a lot of money.

I don't know the percentages, but even in the Big 3 Sports (Football, Basketball, Hockey), it is a surprisingly low % of athletes that go on to pro careers. So to say that "these athletes deserve more than a free ride at their college, because they make the school money and sacrifice a potential education while doing it", isn't a good argument to me. Some of those athletes are at a university because athletics basically IS their major. If they succeed, great. If they don't and leave school with or without a diploma, welcome to life! Non-athletes face this situation all the time. Either not smart enough to get into a college, not enough money, life situations, etc.

From my understanding of NIL, it isn't the University that is directly paying the money, it is an outside donor. So fans aren't necessarily paying more because of it, but you might if you buy a car, from a local dealership that forked over $100k in NIL.

I'm fine with NIL and the Transfer Portal, but with caps and limits. Cap the amount a single athlete and program can receive. Limit the # of TP's that each program can receive/accept each year, make it a % of a full roster.

Left unchecked, the TP and NIL is basically like saying to the NFL, "There are no cap limits and contracts can only be 1 year, everyone is a FA after each season." Imagine how a small market team like the Packers would look in 5 years, after that was initiated.

I have never understood how a college athlete has any time to properly study. I saw an article in the JS this week about an early camp in Madison, in March. You're right, these guys are betting on athletics as a career and that's why they're in school. There are some exceptions, really bright guys who manage to do both, but they're rare.

College sports, especially football, is just like the minor leagues for the NFL. The majority don't make it to the pros.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I have never understood how a college athlete has any time to properly study. I saw an article in the JS this week about an early camp in Madison, in March. You're right, these guys are betting on athletics as a career and that's why they're in school. There are some exceptions, really bright guys who manage to do both, but they're rare.

College sports, especially football, is just like the minor leagues for the NFL. The majority don't make it to the pros.

Believe it or not, some of us athletes made time to study, work a part time job and carry a full credit (15) load each semester, while maintaining a pretty decent GPA. Personally, I think the whole "when do they study" thing is totally overblown and/or misunderstood. Some of the major sports have mandatory study halls that athletes are require to attend. Many of the athletes have access to tutoring. I won't even go into some of the majors and academic requirements that allow some athletes to stay in school. Finally, most athletes are 1 sport athletes, which leaves them quite a few months when they probably aren't "overwhelmed" in their sport.

Honestly, the elephant in the room in many cases is this. Some athletes would not even be attending a college or at least that specific college, if it wasn't for their athletic abilities. Without their athletic abilities they might not gain acceptance. Maybe they don't have the money to afford it or maybe college just isn't in the cards for some of them. One could probably say the same thing about someone who is academically gifted, but can barely throw a ball.

The system worked just fine without NIL money for how many years? Personally, I view NIL money, in most cases, as a tool used to legally bribe players to attend a particular college. I am fine with scholarships and a very limited amount of "NIL money". However, once it began to tip the scales of being obscene amounts of money, as well as flat out bribery, IMO, it became a black eye on College Sports.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Believe it or not, some of us athletes made time to study, work a part time job and carry a full credit (15) load each semester, while maintaining a pretty decent GPA. Personally, I think the whole "when do they study" thing is totally overblown and/or misunderstood. Some of the major sports have mandatory study halls that athletes are require to attend. Many of the athletes have access to tutoring. I won't even go into some of the majors and academic requirements that allow some athletes to stay in school. Finally, most athletes are 1 sport athletes, which leaves them quite a few months when they probably aren't "overwhelmed" in their sport.

Honestly, the elephant in the room in many cases is this. Some athletes would not even be attending a college or at least that specific college, if it wasn't for their athletic abilities. Without their athletic abilities they might not gain acceptance. Maybe they don't have the money to afford it or maybe college just isn't in the cards for some of them. One could probably say the same thing about someone who is academically gifted, but can barely throw a ball.

The system worked just fine without NIL money for how many years? Personally, I view NIL money, in most cases, as a tool used to legally bribe players to attend a particular college. I am fine with scholarships and a very limited amount of "NIL money". However, once it began to tip the scales of being obscene amounts of money, as well as flat out bribery, IMO, it became a black eye on College Sports.

Interesting points Poker, thanks. I still don't buy that a college football player can do well academically and on the field - and yes, that's a generalization that I think applies in most cases. There are certainly exceptions, and the schools are accommodating as you note.

But hey, if an athletic dream gets a guy to college where it would not have happened, good for him. I believe a lot of guys who don't make it to the pros (most of them) will continue their studies and leverage a degree into a career - or at a minimum, it creates a solid start.

And on the well-debated topic of NIL, well it corrected an obvious injustice in that a top payer can make a lot of money for the school. Why not reward him? Or as I think you suggested, spread the NIL money across all players - because hey, it takes a team to win. I realize the system being used to award NIL money is far from perfect, but better than nothing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I still don't buy that a college football player can do well academically and on the field - and yes, that's a generalization that I think applies in most cases.

I really strongly disagree with you on this. I think Universities would too. There are a lot of football players and other athletes that excel in the classroom. As there are people who work part time jobs while in school.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I really strongly disagree with you on this. I think Universities would too. There are a lot of football players and other athletes that excel in the classroom. As there are people who work part time jobs while in school.

A "lot"mod football players "excel" in the class room? Well maybe we can agree to disagree. I think it's the opposite. Now maybe they excel at some puff classes they are allowed to take. That's hard to do at an elite university like Madison.

 

[El Guapo]

Honestly, the elephant in the room in many cases is this. Some athletes would not even be attending a college or at least that specific college, if it wasn't for their athletic abilities. Without their athletic abilities they might not gain acceptance. Maybe they don't have the money to afford it or maybe college just isn't in the cards for some of them. One could probably say the same thing about someone who is academically gifted, but can barely throw a ball.

I completely agree with this point, but in a different way. I think that it is disingenuous to believe that giving them a scholarship is sufficient payment. Many of these kids are setup to fail, because they really don't have the mental tools to take advantage of it. So in the end, they are used and end up with nothing. Yeah that's life, but the world could attempt to be nicer to these kids than just using them and letting them flop afterwards.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I completely agree with this point, but in a different way. I think that it is disingenuous to believe that giving them a scholarship is sufficient payment. Many of these kids are setup to fail, because they really don't have the mental tools to take advantage of it. So in the end, they are used and end up with nothing. Yeah that's life, but the world could attempt to be nicer to these kids than just using them and letting them flop afterwards.

Good point, especially considering that so many of these college athletes never play professional sports, much less make it big. The universities have nothing lose even if they hand out shcolarships to every player. It's athletes who bring in the ad dollars, not scholars.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I completely agree with this point, but in a different way. I think that it is disingenuous to believe that giving them a scholarship is sufficient payment. Many of these kids are setup to fail, because they really don't have the mental tools to take advantage of it. So in the end, they are used and end up with nothing. Yeah that's life, but the world could attempt to be nicer to these kids than just using them and letting them flop afterwards.

I guess I don't see this. A full ride scholarship athlete makes a choice. They can decline or accept a scholarship offer and in return, become a student athlete for that University. By accepting, they agree to follow all the terms of the scholarship in both athletics and scholastics. What they (athlete) does with this opportunity, really is up to them. I think most universities would take offense to the "setup to fail" idea. For it is in their best interest for each athlete to excel in what they are coming to school for, sports and education.

Finally, is the "payment" by the university equal to what the athlete gets and gives back? If you look at the link below, an out of state person would spend approximately $60K per year to attend UW Madison. So an athlete on a full scholarship is being "paid" ~$60K. Fair "pay"?

Cost of Attendance

Your cost of attendance (COA) is an ESTIMATE of what it will cost you to cover the expenses of attending UW-Madison. Your COA includes more than just tuition and fees – see below. Most programs’ COAs are based on a nine-month enrollment period, unless otherwise noted. Although the actual cost of...

financialaid.wisc.edu

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

A "lot"mod football players "excel" in the class room? Well maybe we can agree to disagree. I think it's the opposite. Now maybe they excel at some puff classes they are allowed to take. That's hard to do at an elite university like Madison.

I guess I would strongly disagree with you and have you read the article below. As I alluded to in a previous post, your perception isn't an uncommon one, but it is a false one. Also, we are talking about ALL student athletes, since NIL is available to ALL student athletes.

Badger football team ranks at the top academically

The Wisconsin Badgers’ football program finished as the top academic program in the nation this past season. The Badgers ranked No. 1 of all Football Bowl Subdivision schools in Academic Prog…

badgerswire.usatoday.com

 

[Heyjoe4]

I guess I would strongly disagree with you and have you read the article below. As I alluded to in a previous post, your perception isn't an uncommon one, but it is a false one. Also, we are talking about ALL student athletes, since NIL is available to ALL student athletes.

Badger football team ranks at the top academically

The Wisconsin Badgers’ football program finished as the top academic program in the nation this past season. The Badgers ranked No. 1 of all Football Bowl Subdivision schools in Academic Prog…

badgerswire.usatoday.com

Thanks for the article. It applies to UW, and yes, they have held athletes to higher standards. That's still very subjective. I'm just using common sense. Even if these athletes were otherwise eligible for a college like UW, and I'm sure many aren't, these are not scholastic scholarships. They're athletic scholarships and based on a student's prowess in a sport, not academia.

I'm sure the universities do more to help these students, and that's good. A degree should mean something (even if it gets completed in more than 4 years in a "soft" major).

I doubt that the average DI athlete takes a course load as challenging as other students. In the end, a degree is a degree. But most athletes aren't studying for a career in anything other than a sport. So the DI universities look more like the NFL minor leagues for athletes than they do a real university, and I'm sure the course load and the study requirements reflect that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thanks for the article. It applies to UW, and yes, they have held athletes to higher standards. That's still very subjective. I'm just using common sense. Even if these athletes were otherwise eligible for a college like UW, and I'm sure many aren't, these are not scholastic scholarships. They're athletic scholarships and based on a student's prowess in a sport, not academia.

I'm sure the universities do more to help these students, and that's good. A degree should mean something (even if it gets completed in more than 4 years in a "soft" major).

I doubt that the average DI athlete takes a course load as challenging as other students. In the end, a degree is a degree. But most athletes aren't studying for a career in anything other than a sport. So the DI universities look more like the NFL minor leagues for athletes than they do a real university, and I'm sure the course load and the study requirements reflect that.

So let me get this right. What you are trying to say, in a round about way, is this?

"Your average D1 athlete isn't very bright and thus should be paid to play football at a University. Why even go through the motions of pretending they are getting an education. An education that, even if they get it, won't do them a thing later in life."

So let me ask you this. In a situation prior to NIL Money, when "Joe or Jane Dumb Jock" leaves the educational system at 16 or 18 via dropping out of H.S., graduating from H.S., getting their GED, what would you suggest is a good life path for them to pursue? College Sports sounds like a dead end for them, since it will make them no money and provide them with nothing but a "soft" education. What should they do?

Yes, I am angry and being passive aggressive here. Why? Because frankly put, I am so tired of the "dumb jock" stereotype that some people use. Tired of it being used as a reason for NIL to be just fine. Tired of it being attached to student athletes, as a general "yeah, they might be athletic, but they sure aren't as bright as the rest of us."

Some athletes choose ATHLETICS as their career path. Their hope is to make a career out of it and college is the next stepping stone to try and do it. Some athletes know that after college, their odds of being a professional in their sport is slim to none, yet they still except a scholarship to a University to further their education, while still pursing their athletic passion. Then you have every athlete that falls somewhere between those 2.

 

[Heyjoe4]

So let me get this right. What you are trying to say, in a round about way, is this?

"Your average D1 athlete isn't very bright and thus should be paid to play football at a University. Why even go through the motions of pretending they are getting an education. An education that, even if they get it, won't do them a thing later in life."

So let me ask you this. In a situation prior to NIL Money, when "Joe or Jane Dumb Jock" leaves the educational system at 16 or 18 via dropping out of H.S., graduating from H.S., getting their GED, what would you suggest is a good life path for them to pursue? College Sports sounds like a dead end for them, since it will make them no money and provide them with nothing but a "soft" education. What should they do?

Yes, I am angry and being passive aggressive here. Why? Because frankly put, I am so tired of the "dumb jock" stereotype that some people use. Tired of it being used as a reason for NIL to be just fine. Tired of it being attached to student athletes, as a general "yeah, they might be athletic, but they sure aren't as bright as the rest of us."

Some athletes choose ATHLETICS as their career path. Their hope is to make a career out of it and college is the next stepping stone to try and do it. Some athletes know that after college, their odds of being a professional in their sport is slim to none, yet they still except a scholarship to a University to further their education, while still pursing their athletic passion. Then you have every athlete that falls somewhere between those 2.

With all respect Poker, you're putting words in my mouth and then writing a long argument against it. I don't mind that we disagree, but this isn't the right way to argue a point. You can't possible know what I'm thinking, and vice versa.

I think we've both written enough about how we feel on the topic. It sounds like you were a student/athlete at some point (I might have that wrong). Regardless, you are passionate on the topic, and that's commendable.

I think D1 athletes, especially football players, use their sport to advance their careers. Most fail to make it in the NFL. Education is secondary to that. I'm not gonna move off my point, and you are sticking with your point.

Let's just leave it there.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I doubt that the average DI athlete takes a course load as challenging as other students. In the end, a degree is a degree. But most athletes aren't studying for a career in anything other than a sport.

I respect that you have an opinion and you are entitled to one. However, I think you should do more research, especially if what you said above, is your opinion, because it is FACTUALLY incorrect.

Again, my goal is not to chastise you, but more to try and get folks to drop this incorrect stigma of student athletes.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I respect that you have an opinion and you are entitled to one. However, I think you should do more research, especially if what you said above, is your opinion, because it is FACTUALLY incorrect.

Again, my goal is not to chastise you, but more to try and get folks to drop this incorrect stigma of student athletes.

Well c'mon, if I'm FACTUALLY incorrect, how so? What facts are wrong? Where is your proof? There is none because I'm expressing an opinion and an opinion is not a fact. It's a subjective argument. But yeah, athletes going to school are also students. So what? Emotion has gotten the better of you on this matter.

And that's all from me on this topic. This has become tedious.

 

[El Guapo]

So let's change the focus, because none of us are really calling all student-athletes dumb. Let's just focus on football for now - since this is a football forum. Yes all athletes are able to get NIL money. Yes there are extremely bright athletes. Yes there are very talented young people that get a hard-earned athletic scholarship and also receive a hard-earned degree in many great fields.

However, football is a different animal. Quite a lot of them come from substandard schools and got substandard grades. Big universities are tough places to learn. I remember taking calculus from a professor who spoke zero English. He just wrote math problems on a board and pointed. The dean said that they couldn't afford English-speaking professors and TAs. We all had to teach ourselves calculus out of the textbooks. It was no great struggle for me, but my brother who struggled in school, would have failed. Toss in daily practices and team meetings and it puts a lot of these kids at a great disadvantage. There are tons of resources available and tutors which is great. However, from what I saw and the people that I knew when I was in college, many of those guys were just trying to get by and "keep their grades up" so that they didn't get kicked off the team. Their focus was football.

As older adults, we can sit back and talk about how precious a scholarship education is from the luxury of our hindsight perspective. Not all 17-21 year olds have that perspective until it's too late. Opportunity and scholarships pass them by and then it's too late.

 

[Heyjoe4]

So let's change the focus, because none of us are really calling all student-athletes dumb. Let's just focus on football for now - since this is a football forum. Yes all athletes are able to get NIL money. Yes there are extremely bright athletes. Yes there are very talented young people that get a hard-earned athletic scholarship and also receive a hard-earned degree in many great fields.

However, football is a different animal. Quite a lot of them come from substandard schools and got substandard grades. Big universities are tough places to learn. I remember taking calculus from a professor who spoke zero English. He just wrote math problems on a board and pointed. The dean said that they couldn't afford English-speaking professors and TAs. We all had to teach ourselves calculus out of the textbooks. It was no great struggle for me, but my brother who struggled in school, would have failed. Toss in daily practices and team meetings and it puts a lot of these kids at a great disadvantage. There are tons of resources available and tutors which is great. However, from what I saw and the people that I knew when I was in college, many of those guys were just trying to get by and "keep their grades up" so that they didn't get kicked off the team. Their focus was football.

As older adults, we can sit back and talk about how precious a scholarship education is from the luxury of our hindsight perspective. Not all 17-21 year olds have that perspective until it's too late. Opportunity and scholarships pass them by and then it's too late.

Thanks for adding some much needed perspective El Guapo. That's a good summary. If I had realized how valuable a college degree(s) was, and if I had known what I wanted to do, things would have gone much differently. But as you say, that's from the luxury of hindsight. And I didn't have to worry about training and playing a sport. So my only excuse is "misguided youth".

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

However, football is a different animal. Quite a lot of them come from substandard schools and got substandard grades. Big universities are tough places to learn.

I will say the same thing that I said to Joe, this is a generalization and one that I don't agree with, especially when it comes to The University of Wisconsin. This goes for football, as well as all sports at Wisconsin. I can't speak for ALL schools, but I do know that quite a few Big10 Schools maintain similar standards. Also, keep in mind, the overwhelming majority of college athletes have no illusions about becoming professional athletes.

I also kind of chuckle when Joe or others say "maybe they excel at some puff classes they are allowed to take." Another generalization that I don't agree with. I was a Business major and I had to take a lot of courses outside of my business degree to complete my requirements, ones that I had zero interest in. Some of them were probably "puff classes" to those majoring in them (psychology, calculus, chemistry, history, etc.), but they sure weren't "puff classes" for me. Again, I feel that for some athletes, "Sports" is their major and what they wish to pursue after college. So if they excel at that "major" and do average in all their other required studies, where is the problem? Maybe what Universities need to do is have majors for specific sports. Instead, in some cases they appear to be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and forcing a "Football Major" into a Com Arts major.

Saying "let's just talk about football and the NIL money" isn't a complete conversation either. NIL has invaded all sports.

BTW, here is a big reason Gary Anderson walked away from Wisconsin.

Andersen departure proves UW academic standards too tough for him

Gary Andersen, who surprisingly left the University of Wisconsin for Oregon State, complained that the high academic standards in Madison made it too hard for him to recruit the kind of players he wanted.

onmilwaukee.com

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Interesting article, but the Deion video/speech is even better. I guess at Colorado, they are facing the academic issues that you two are talking about. With Dion addressing them in the present and now, as well as the reality of their situation.

Good timing for our discussion.

Deion Sanders lectures Colorado football team on classroom behavior after professor’s angry letter

Well Off Media, managed by Sanders’ son, Deion Sanders Jr., posted a clip on YouTube earlier this week in which Sanders read a letter from a Colorado professor who was dismayed with how stude…

nypost.com