The Khalil Mack thread -- now a Bear for $155million

[Dantés]

With Jake injured, the fact that we'd don't have a good ILB besides Blake is not a weakness? If we get couple of good trades (like Morrison) then we may consider Mack for Clay, however as I said above I want to see Clay under Mike P's defence before pulling the trigger.

I don't think losing Jake Ryan was significant enough to warrant any kind of reassessment of our run defense. He's fine, but he's replacement level. And he only figured to play 30-40% of the snaps this year, depending on Burks' progress.

I don't at all understand the logic that we can only consider adding an elite pass rusher if we have ILB (a low value position) all buttoned up. That makes no sense.

 

[XPack]

I don't at all understand the logic that we can only consider adding an elite pass rusher if we have ILB (a low value position) all buttoned up. That makes no sense.

That was not the point. The debate is on how Clay/Perry is rated. You reckon they need to be replaced. I do not think so. I'm happy to go into this season with them being primary and Gilbert for rotation. Fackrell/Biegel is worrisome still.

The edge rushing class of 2019 draft is excellent and we have 2 first round picks, so I think we can afford to play safe without Mack.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I doubt this effects Macks final payday much, but the Giants just gave Beckham a huge deal! Adams deal is looking even better now.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000951811/article/odell-beckham-giants-agrees-on-5year-95m-deal

 

[Dantés]

That was not the point. The debate is on how Clay/Perry is rated. You reckon they need to be replaced. I do not think so. I'm happy to go into this season with them being primary and Gilbert for rotation. Fackrell/Biegel is worrisome still.

The edge rushing class of 2019 draft is excellent and we have 2 first round picks, so I think we can afford to play safe without Mack.

You made that the point when you suggested (twice) that they shouldn’t trade for Mack because they need run defense (Mack is an elite run defender, btw).

What I reckon is that Matthews is gone after this year, Perry is fragile, and adding Mack would take our pass rush and defense to new heights. If the price is too high, I think they can get some good things done with what they have. But if they acquire Mack, their championship aspirations because significantly more realistic.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But if they acquire Mack, their championship aspirations because significantly more realistic.

Do they? For this year maybe, but how about the following years when you are trying to fill roster spots with considerably less money? Cap aside, there is no doubt Mack is an improvement to the current roster. However, this is a long term effect of improving the defense by 1 player and handcuffing the Packers from having the ability to spread that money over a multiple number of players that as a whole could be more positive to the team.

Starting to beat a dead horse here of something that probably won't happen. I'm fine with the draft and player capital that the Packers would probably need to spend on Mack, but that contract would scare the hell out of me if I am Gute and apparently the Raiders feel the same or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Imagine if there was talk by the Packers that Rodgers has decided to sit until his contract is reworked and they are now accepting trade offers for a first and other considerations. We would all feel fleeced on the what we got for him, but maybe breath a sigh of relief that $30+M/year was freed up. BTW....I feel Rodgers will be well worth the money, but it was pretty well proven last year, he IS one player that can make a big difference.

 

[Dantés]

Do they? For this year maybe, but how about the following years when you are trying to fill roster spots with considerably less money? Cap aside, there is no doubt Mack is an improvement to the current roster. However, this is a long term effect of improving the defense by 1 player and handcuffing the ability to spread that money over a multiple number of players that as a whole could be more positive to the team.

That is one school of thought. I tend to disagree. The #1 biggest advantage towards winning a championship is an elite QB. The #2 biggest advantage is an elite pass rusher. If you have the chance to have both of those advantages, it's worth more than the investment you have to make, IMO.

The Packers have been doing this for some time with Matthews and Rodgers. Mack and Rodgers figures to be somewhat more expensive, but not dramatically so. I don't see what else they could do with the money over the next three seasons that would increase their odds of winning more Super Bowls with Rodgers more than adding a guy like Mack.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That is one school of thought. I tend to disagree. The #1 biggest advantage towards winning a championship is an elite QB. The #2 biggest advantage is an elite pass rusher. If you have the chance to have both of those advantages, it's worth more than the investment you have to make, IMO.

While that might be true, I think its a bit misleading. The difference that a QB like Rodgers can make on an offense is much greater than what Mack can do on defense and I think more than a $5M/year difference.

I remember when Suh was signed by the Dolphins and became the highest paid defensive player and he was labeled as the best D player at the time. Yes, different positions, but his presence in Miami wasn't life changing for their team. They went from being an 8-8 team before him to a 6-10 team his first season. Suh btw is also an iron man.....I think he has missed 2 games in his career.

 

[XPack]

We should be able to pick a top edge rusher prospect in 2019. Nick Bosa is highly rated and so are 2 or 3 others.

 

[Dantés]

While that might be true, I think its a bit misleading. The difference that a QB like Rodgers can make on an offense is much greater than what Mack can do on defense and I think more than a $5M/year difference.

I remember when Suh was signed by the Dolphins and became the highest paid defensive player and he was labeled as the best D player at the time. Yes, different positions, but his presence in Miami wasn't life changing for their team. They went from being an 8-8 team before him to a 6-10 team his first season. Suh btw is also an iron man.....I think he has missed 2 games in his career.

Suh was a phenomenal player and is still good at 31, but he wasn't the force purely as a pass rusher that Mack is. Again, per PFF's data, you're talking about a difference of 20-30 pressures per season fewer, and fewer of those pressures actually turning into sacks and hits. That's the skill set that's so valuable-- the ability to get to the opposing QB. The Broncos basically won a Super Bowl on the back of an elite pass rusher. If you put a guy like that together with Rodgers, I would argue that you are giving yourself the single biggest headstart in the game towards winning a championship.

 

[Dantés]

We should be able to pick a top edge rusher prospect in 2019. Nick Bosa is highly rated and so are 2 or 3 others.

The difference between that and Mack is that you get a bonafide elite player for the rest of Rodgers' career by trading for Mack. If you draft a guy, you have to first be right about them, and then wait for them to develop. In the best case scenario, you're talking about 2020 before you have anything close to Mack, and that's if you're lucky. That's two more seasons of Rodgers prime, gone. Now I'm prepared for that route if the cost of Mack is prohibitive, but if they have the chance to add a guy who is already a force to help Rodgers win one or two more over the next 3-4 seasons, I think they have to do it.

 

[RRyder]

I doubt this effects Macks final payday much, but the Giants just gave Beckham a huge deal! Adams deal is looking even better now.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000951811/article/odell-beckham-giants-agrees-on-5year-95m-deal

It might not be the best baseline but I think it guarantees Mack will be getting over 20+ with most of it fully guaranteed at minimum now.

Pass rusher is just more valuable then WR

 

[Heyjoe4]

Perry and Clay are oft-injured. Clay is 32 and will be a free agent after this season. Their fragility is exacerbated by the lack of depth behind them. There isn't a player on the roster that figures to be an heir apparent in the starting role. Gilbert has shown out, but his limitations should keep him in a rotational, not starting position. Pass rush is the second most valuable skill in the game after quarterbacking. The jump the Packers would make in that department by adding Mack would be extremely impactful to their overall success this season. Mack is the elite player who, by a strange circumstance, might actually be attainable, so it makes little sense to say that we shouldn't go after him because he doesn't play a different position that you deem to be more needful. Our run defense was strong last season and the personnel is largely the same. Preseason hiccups notwithstanding, there's no evidence at this point that it's going to be a weakness. I agree that the pass defense was mostly attributable to the secondary, which appears to be much improved. However, if you stack an elite pass rusher on top of that improvement you go from being merely "better" to potentially turning your defense into a Super Bowl winning weapon. No run stuffing linebacker or defensive lineman is going to have that type of effect.

Your last sentence says it all. Not that many sacks come from the D line and certainly not from run stuffers. The QB has to feel the heat early and often. Yeah the secondary has improved, but their play will be enhanced by a consistent pass rush. The key word is “consistent.” I’m sure Pettine will improve the scheme of the D, but ya still need the players. I’m not sure trading for Mack is worth it, though. His price is high and he’s one guy. Glute did as well as he could in FA and the draft. Unless something happens that I don’t see with this roster, getting pressure on the QB from the edge will be a problem.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Your last sentence says it all. Not that many sacks come from the D line and certainly not from run stuffers. The QB has to feel the heat early and often. Yeah the secondary has improved, but their play will be enhanced by a consistent pass rush. The key word is “consistent.” I’m sure Pettine will improve the scheme of the D, but ya still need the players. I’m not sure trading for Mack is worth it, though. His price is high and he’s one guy. Glute did as well as he could in FA and the draft. Unless something happens that I don’t see with this roster, getting pressure on the QB from the edge will be a problem.

Mack is a rare, elite pass rusher, but.....

A) His price will be very high, both in terms of the trade and his contract.

B) The fact that he's holding out when he has a contract is a bit of a red flag - What's to prevent him from doing it in a year or two if he fears he's underpaid again?


Still, it's tempting....Other than Von Miller, I don't know who has a better first step.

 

[Dantés]

Random thought. What if the Raiders’ reluctance to pay Mack has as much to do with cash flow as it does salary cap? If what I’ve read is correct, they’re dead last in annual revenue. They just gave Carr a contract worth a maximum of 125 million, and Gruden a contract worth a maximum of 100 million. Maybe Mark Davis just doesn’t have the wearwithall to make to make it happen?

 

[PikeBadger]

Mack is a rare, elite pass rusher, but.....

A) His price will be very high, both in terms of the trade and his contract.

B) The fact that he's holding out when he has a contract is a bit of a red flag - What's to prevent him from doing it in a year or two if he fears he's underpaid again?


Still, it's tempting....Other than Von Miller, I don't know who has a better first step.

I haven’t weighed in on the topic of Mack but your “B” was the very first thing that came to my mind when the news broke. I would think that every GM in the league considers it “more than a bit of a red flag”. If I were GM, I’d never trust this guy at least as long as he had the same agent. I’m not saying it couldn’t possibly work out, but I really think that the Packers with Russ Ball are a very unlikely place for Mack to end up. I think having him, Rodgers, Adams under big contracts results in making it impossible to extend worthy players in to their second contract and would result in churning the rest of the roster perpetually.

 

[AmishMafia]

Planning ahead for the headlines:

Mack and cheese(heads), a fine combination.

Gute orders a big Mack

Gute sees The Profit in signing Kahlil

 

[Jerellh528]

Considering the Packers are working on a contract extension that will make Aaron Rodgers the highest-paid player in the NFL – whether it’s this year or next – then working out a new deal with Mack on top of that would tie up an enormous amount of money in two players. Among other risks, if either sustained serious injury it could be a disaster financially and on the field.

But those are risks Gutekunst appears willing to live with, at least as a general philosophy regarding elite players. He can’t talk publicly about Mack, because that would violate NFL rules on tampering with another team’s player. But when asked if the Packers can afford to have the highest-paid quarterback in the league as well as one of if not the highest-paid defensive player in the league, Gutekunst suggested they could.

“When you’re talking about unique players, there’s only so many of them out there,” he said. “At the same time, the financial challenges may be difficult, but without players you can’t win. It’s like any significant player, they’re not inexpensive, but you have to have them to win.”

-Pete Dougherty, Green Bay press gazette

https://amp.packersnews.com/amp/1122519002?__twitter_impression=true

 

[thequick12]

While that might be true, I think its a bit misleading. The difference that a QB like Rodgers can make on an offense is much greater than what Mack can do on defense and I think more than a $5M/year difference.

I remember when Suh was signed by the Dolphins and became the highest paid defensive player and he was labeled as the best D player at the time. Yes, different positions, but his presence in Miami wasn't life changing for their team. They went from being an 8-8 team before him to a 6-10 team his first season. Suh btw is also an iron man.....I think he has missed 2 games in his career.

Do you also remember when the broncos one the Superbowl with Peyton manning on his last leg because of a guy named von Miller. I get Miller didn't do it alone and they and other guys on that defense but the Packers seem to have a few young play makers as well along with a very good defensive line. I think it's definitely worth it for 1 first and 20 m per year. 2 first and 25m a year Im not sure but it's not gonna be that high. I say gute should get it done when the opportunity arises. Unfortunately I think that's gonna a bit into the regular season.

 

[Dantés]

Considering the Packers are working on a contract extension that will make Aaron Rodgers the highest-paid player in the NFL – whether it’s this year or next – then working out a new deal with Mack on top of that would tie up an enormous amount of money in two players. Among other risks, if either sustained serious injury it could be a disaster financially and on the field.

But those are risks Gutekunst appears willing to live with, at least as a general philosophy regarding elite players. He can’t talk publicly about Mack, because that would violate NFL rules on tampering with another team’s player. But when asked if the Packers can afford to have the highest-paid quarterback in the league as well as one of if not the highest-paid defensive player in the league, Gutekunst suggested they could.

“When you’re talking about unique players, there’s only so many of them out there,” he said. “At the same time, the financial challenges may be difficult, but without players you can’t win. It’s like any significant player, they’re not inexpensive, but you have to have them to win.”

-Pete Dougherty, Green Bay press gazette

https://amp.packersnews.com/amp/1122519002?__twitter_impression=true

They are also the risks that the team has been living with for some time. In 2014, Matthews and Rodgers’ annual averages accounted for 26% of that year’s cap.

 

[Mondio]

Do you also remember when the broncos one the Superbowl with Peyton manning on his last leg because of a guy named von Miller. I get Miller didn't do it alone and they and other guys on that defense but the Packers seem to have a few young play makers as well along with a very good defensive line. I think it's definitely worth it for 1 first and 20 m per year. 2 first and 25m a year Im not sure but it's not gonna be that high. I say gute should get it done when the opportunity arises. Unfortunately I think that's gonna a bit into the regular season.

I still think of Carolina gets a call I think they should have that would have put the ball out near midfield instead of 3rd and long, Miller doesn't get that strip and defensive TD and Carolina isn't playing catch up all game and the end is different. Regardless, every year with Rodgers as our QB we've been in the hunt for a decade. Denver hasn't made the playoffs since winning it all.

 

[Conso]

That was not the point. The debate is on how Clay/Perry is rated. You reckon they need to be replaced. I do not think so. I'm happy to go into this season with them being primary and Gilbert for rotation. Fackrell/Biegel is worrisome still.

The edge rushing class of 2019 draft is excellent and we have 2 first round picks, so I think we can afford to play safe without Mack.

I’m with the guy who commented on wanting to see Clay with Pettine, Clay seems on downhill but with Dom running the defense he just seemed...demoralized, lost the fire. I don’t know if it was Dom and his over complicated schemes, or just Clay getting older. I also think though that if we could get Khalil even for just a few seasons without giving up an arm and a leg both in trade value and his contract we should. AR is going on year 14 and we should make that extra push for SB titles while he’s still the best in the league statistically.

 

[Dantés]

I still think of Carolina gets a call I think they should have that would have put the ball out near midfield instead of 3rd and long, Miller doesn't get that strip and defensive TD and Carolina isn't playing catch up all game and the end is different. Regardless, every year with Rodgers as our QB we've been in the hunt for a decade. Denver hasn't made the playoffs since winning it all.

An elite edge rusher isn’t close to the advantage of an elite QB, but I would say that it’s still the #2 biggest leg up that a team can have. If Rodgers and Mack were on the same team, it would be so far and away the best combo in the league.

 

[Conso]

An elite edge rusher isn’t close to the advantage of an elite QB, but I would say that it’s still the #2 biggest leg up that a team can have. If Rodgers and Mack were on the same team, it would be so far and away the best combo in the league.

Yeah that’s what I’m thinking, squeeze out some real titles, not the “second place” titles, the SB titles.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Considering the Packers are working on a contract extension that will make Aaron Rodgers the highest-paid player in the NFL – whether it’s this year or next – then working out a new deal with Mack on top of that would tie up an enormous amount of money in two players. Among other risks, if either sustained serious injury it could be a disaster financially and on the field.

The Packers would possibly run into trouble to either re-sign some of their own players or be active in free agency next offseason by trading for Mack. According to Over the Cap the team currently would have approximately $38 million of cap space for 2019 assuming it raises to $190 million. Extending Rodgers and signing Mack to a deal for $20+ million would come close to going all in for this year.

Denver hasn't made the playoffs since winning it all.

The Packers could suffer the same fate by acquiring Mack. I'm not sure that's the right way to handle business with Rodgers planning to play another six seasons.

 

[Snoops]

The Packers would possibly run into trouble to either re-sign some of their own players or be active in free agency next offseason by trading for Mack. According to Over the Cap the team currently would have approximately $38 million of cap space for 2019 assuming it raises to $190 million. Extending Rodgers and signing Mack to a deal for $20+ million would come close to going all in for this year.



The Packers could suffer the same fate by acquiring Mack. I'm not sure that's the right way to handle business with Rodgers planning to play another six seasons.

I can see it now they end up giving up tons of money for him and a lot for a trade then he gets hurt and doesn’t play the full season lol as much as I want him I’d be ok if we don’t get him and draft a top guy I feel like Gilbert is only gonna get better the more he plays against starters opposite of him on offense he is building confidence I play sports and when it happens u only play better.. I got a good feeling about him