Restructuring of Contracts

[Deleted member 6794]

absolutely. i didn't say trade one them though. i said trade one of either daniels, clark, or perry. they're the only guys with any trade value. losing one wouldn't create a hardship as our draft position will allow us to fill that spot.

There's absolutely no way the Packers should even think about trading either Daniels or Clark. With the pass rush in need of an upgrade it might not be smart parting ways with Perry as well.

I do think it's plausible we get a few deals restructured to save a smooth Million or 3.

The Packers could definitely save more cap space than that by restructuring the contracts of Matthews, Nelson and Cobb.

I said we have good depth at wr. And I'm optimistic #12 would put up damn near the same stats with Nelson/ Cobb, or without. That's both Nelson/Cobb gone. He would simply make someone like Allison, or Davis look like a pro bowler. Or we could bring back James Jones for another double digit Td season??? Would we need help at TE? Yes, we do either way. Would we need to run a slightly more balanced offense, with Jones/Williams/Monty running more? Probably. But not necessarily... I believe this. I also believe we kept 7 wrs last year for a reason. And I don't think we would drop both, without making wr a priority in the draft.
At cb we have a couple first and couple second rounders to build on. I'm optimistic. I didn't realize Rollins blew an Achilles tho. A little less optimistic about him...

It's ludicrous to suggest that Rodgers doesn't need quality wide receivers to perform at an elite level. The Packers would have to adequately replace Nelson and/or Cobb if the team decides to move on to feature one of the top passing offenses in the game next season, a task that might be impossible to achieve.

At cornerback it doesn't matter that the depth chart includes several former first and second round picks as long as they don't perform up to that level.

Based off the salary cap topic, it said with the high end of cap being raised... we will have about 10 million cap space to retain our own free agents, and pick up any others along the way... that would bring us down to zero for carry over into next year. Thompson left us with 10 mil cap carry over from last year. If we enter next year with nothing, that means we spent 10mil over the cap in 2018... that's spending all 10mil on free agency, and giving the current team one last chance to get the ring. Worth mentioning the cap might not be raised the max amount, so 10mil might only be 8.... This would surely be followed by a total rebuild , possibly from qb, on through.

Me. I'm already over the loss of all three. Moved on. Looking at what we have left, and the roughly 44 mil in cap and a draft...First things first, give most of it to #12, and carry over as much into 2019 as possible. Get the ship going in the right direction. Trade back a half dozen times in the draft, and add 15 rookies to the roster. Make sure the oline is solid for #12s golden years. Or something close to that

With the cap expected to raise to $178 million for next season the Packers will enter the new league year with close to $17 million in cap space, pending any moves before the start of free agency. That's it, there's no way to spend over the cap at any point free March 14.

I would prefer Gutekunst to be aggressive during the draft and use some of the picks to trade up to select players that have an immediate impact this year as the team is in desperate need of playmakers but not in a rebuilding mode.

 

[Mondio]

Davis is never going to be a pro bowler with Rodgers throwing him the ball. He can barely find the field as it is. He's done nothing at WR to even make me perk up and take notice. I had higher hopes than a lot for him probably, after watching a highlight tape. Had good speed, seemed to have good hands and made some great catches. Now i'm not even sure he see's the ball when it's thrown. If he had 30 catches at this point I'd call it a raging success in a season for him at WR.

 

[Half Empty]

Maybe edit the first sentence?

 

[Mondio]

that would probably be a good idea

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

The Packers could definitely save more cap space than that by restructuring the contracts of Matthews, Nelson and Cobb.



It's ludicrous to suggest that Rodgers doesn't need quality wide receivers to perform at an elite level. The Packers would have to adequately replace Nelson and/or Cobb if the team decides to move on to feature one of the top passing offenses in the game next season, a task that might be impossible to achieve.

At cornerback it doesn't matter that the depth chart includes several former first and second round picks as long as they don't perform up to that level.



With the cap expected to raise to $178 million for next season the Packers will enter the new league year with close to $17 million in cap space, pending any moves before the start of free agency. That's it, there's no way to spend over the cap at any point free March 14.

I would prefer Gutekunst to be aggressive during the draft and use some of the picks to trade up to select players that have an immediate impact this year as the team is in desperate need of playmakers but not in a rebuilding mode.

In the salary cap topic, everything was figured in. Rookie contracts, injured reserve replacements, etc. So some of your 17mil number is going to be spent on that stuff before and during the season... So his numbers were around $10mil after rookies and ir replacements.
My comment about having spent our whole cap already, is referencing that Thompson left us $10 mil in cap carry over. And right now we have 10 mil (of 17), spendable cap space. If we plan to keep 10 mil carry over, that means we are done in free agency....right now. All done. If the NFL decides not to raise the cap the maximum amount? Then we are dipping into savings already... right now.

Now if I'm building a team. #12 is #1 priority. Jordy, Cobb, and Mathews didn't stop us from going 3-7 down the stretch. If they did, I might not be so quick to make a cut. #12 is the man. Time we lock him up with a mega contract. That's going to take some hard cuts.

I'm not against restructuring in Jordy's case. He might be playing possum. I think he and #12 will always be good together. Mathews and Cobb are where the cap goes, so that's where it has to come from.

This whole "must have replacement in place" concept, I'm not buying. It goes against the next man up concept. Which is law. I guarantee if I drop dead tomorrow, someone will step up and build awesome log homes. Guarantee... we had 7 wrs, and released a couple good prospects. If we lose two, and go down to 5+. Add a couple rookies. You telling me there's no way #12 could dominate?

or Mathews... we spent a 3rd rounder on fackrell in 2016, A 4th rounder on biegel in 2017. Spent big locking in Perry for the other side... got a decent prospect in Gilbert imo. Or what ever his name was. Seems we add a couple depth guys, and we are good.

I'm hoping pettine comes in and plays another dlineman. A actual lb instead of a tweener safety playing lb. Jones can play the part of punishing safety. More Big ,fast, strong, physical CBs. Basicly super size some of these positions... Thompson and capers loved to do the opposite. Olb replaces one , sometimes two Dlinemen. Safety playing ilb. No 230# safety, we liked 205 pound safety. CBs under 6', 200#. We played light right across the board...but to make up for it, we had guys who weren't that fast.....

Anyways. I completely agree that the wr corps, and the olb corps, would be in rebuild mode. But for some positives, we do have one young star in each of those groups. The team as a whole has great building blocks to build 2018s roster... I'm optimistic every year we had #4, or #12.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This whole "must have replacement in place" concept, I'm not buying. It goes against the next man up concept. Which is law. I guarantee if I drop dead tomorrow, someone will step up and build awesome log homes. Guarantee... we had 7 wrs, and released a couple good prospects. If we lose two, and go down to 5+. Add a couple rookies. You telling me there's no way #12 could dominate?

While I appreciate your optimism of "next man up", it is just that, optimism and not reality. Just like when AR went down at QB, our next man up sucked. If you remove Jordy AND Cobb, our "next men up" are......Allison, Davis and maybe Monty, I won't include Janis, since his contract is up and if you expect him to be the #2 or #3 WR, than well....ouch.

So yes, I am telling you That if we release Cobb and Nelson and rely on our current roster + rookies, AR could very well struggle. Look what happened in 2015 when Nelson went down. Look what happens in games when his primary receivers are injured, he does actually struggle. AR may be Superman, but he still relies on talented receivers and being on the same page as they are.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Maybe edit the first sentence?

While I appreciate your optimism of "next man up", it is just that, optimism and not reality. Just like when AR went down at QB, our next man up sucked. If you remove Jordy AND Cobb, our "next men up" are......Allison, Davis and maybe Monty, I won't include Janis, since his contract is up and if you expect him to be the #2 or #3 WR, than well....ouch.

So yes, I am telling you That if we release Cobb and Nelson and rely on our current roster + rookies, AR could very well struggle. Look what happened in 2015 when Nelson went down. Look what happens in games when his primary receivers are injured, he does actually struggle. AR may be Superman, but he still relies on talented receivers and being on the same page as they are.

In 2015, didn't all the rbs, wrs, oline, and Rodgers also go down? Losing Jordy was obviously devastating to that team. But Adams has since earned the #1 wr spot. And is still in an uptrend. Jordy did nothing with Hundley, and nothing the last game with #12, with the season on the line. It's not impossible to replace nothing.... Cobb has been average the last few years. Monty imo was a bigger, better, version of Cobb anyways. And Monty will be looking for snaps imo. That is a built in fix with Jones/Williams earning snaps away from Monty...

All three of these guys, with Mathews included in this. Their stats , over the course of the last few years, is not hard to replace.

It's funny you mention Janis as not an option. And true as that may be. When we were forced to play him, he had like 170 yds and two tds, playing against one of the best CBs in the league in a playoff game... Allison, Davis, Yancy/dupree type guys. Janis the special teams guy. Or maybe a top tier rookie? Or maybe we trade Cobb, a young professional with obvious talent, in need of new surroundings. For say Josh Gordon, who is one doobie away from retirement, but would surely break Brady/moss single season td record with #12 throwing the ball, and Adams opposite... there are options if we choose to pursue them imo.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

In 2015, didn't all the rbs, wrs, oline, and Rodgers also go down? Losing Jordy was obviously devastating to that team. But Adams has since earned the #1 wr spot. And is still in an uptrend. Jordy did nothing with Hundley, and nothing the last game with #12, with the season on the line. It's not impossible to replace nothing.... Cobb has been average the last few years. Monty imo was a bigger, better, version of Cobb anyways. And Monty will be looking for snaps imo. That is a built in fix with Jones/Williams earning snaps away from Monty...

All three of these guys, with Mathews included in this. Their stats , over the course of the last few years, is not hard to replace.

It's funny you mention Janis as not an option. And true as that may be. When we were forced to play him, he had like 170 yds and two tds, playing against one of the best CBs in the league in a playoff game... Allison, Davis, Yancy/dupree type guys. Janis the special teams guy. Or maybe a top tier rookie? Or maybe we trade Cobb, a young professional with obvious talent, in need of new surroundings. For say Josh Gordon, who is one doobie away from retirement, but would surely break Brady/moss single season td record with #12 throwing the ball, and Adams opposite... there are options if we choose to pursue them imo.

Again, I think you are being way too optimistic of the difference between the abilities of a Starter and backups. Couldn't a person launch the same argument each year and say "lets release Bahk, Perry, Daniels and Bulaga......their backups should be ready to perform."

Your original point was that the Packers should be able to rely on their current depth and rookies to replace Cobb and Nelson, now you are adding "Trading Cobb for Gordon?" I think we all agree that if better value for a proven starting WR in free agency is out there, the move could make sense, but I don't think relying on a rookie, Allison, Davis, Monty and Janis to become our 2-6 would be smart. BTW Dupre is a Buffalo Bill.

If you cut Matthews as well and are going to rely on a "top tier rookie" or depth, that is now 2 positions you are hoping to fill with the same scenario.

Again, I am not saying that there aren't better options between now and the start of 2018 when it comes to Cobb, Nelson and Matthews, but cutting/trading them and then expecting to fill their spots with current Packers or rookies, I don't see the logic behind that, unless you are viewing 2018 as a rebuilding year?

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Again, I think you are being way too optimistic of the difference between the abilities of a Starter and backups. Couldn't a person launch the same argument each year and say "lets release Bahk, Perry, Daniels and Bulaga......their backups should be ready to perform."

Your original point was that the Packers should be able to rely on their current depth and rookies to replace Cobb and Nelson, now you are adding "Trading Cobb for Gordon?" I think we all agree that if better value for a proven starting WR in free agency is out there, the move could make sense, but I don't think relying on a rookie, Allison, Davis, Monty and Janis to become our 2-6 would be smart. BTW Dupre is a Buffalo Bill.

If you cut Matthews as well and are going to rely on a "top tier rookie" or depth, that is now 2 positions you are hoping to fill with the same scenario.

Again, I am not saying that there aren't better options between now and the start of 2018 when it comes to Cobb, Nelson and Matthews, but cutting/trading them and then expecting to fill their spots with current Packers or rookies, I don't see the logic behind that, unless you are viewing 2018 as a rebuilding year?

I'm looking at cap space. Simple as that. If we could ignore cap space. Then we could keep everyone.

If Jordy ,Cobb,Mathews was making 6 mil instead of 12, I would keep them all. But they don't .

Every year we come into the season with positions of no depth, or even need. It's usually dline, or ilb. Rb, or otackle.... this year would be wr, and olb maybe. But maybe not?

As far as the Cobb/Gordon trade. Lol. I was just saying we have options at this point of the season. Base wr corps being what we have, minus Jordy/Cobb. Adding Monty back in, to some degree.

On a plus side. We needed to add speed to our wr corps... now we could do that.

 

[gbgary]

There's absolutely no way the Packers should even think about trading either Daniels or Clark. With the pass rush in need of an upgrade it might not be smart parting ways with Perry as well.

the subject was "trading", as a way to bring in talent, when I made my comment. dt is the only position of depth on the team. as I said then, you have to give up something to get something. so I named 3 guys who they could actually get someone good for and their loss could be covered with their first pick. I wasn't advocating it just throwing it out there. standing pat though isn't going to make the Packers better. if they could get a good cb or wr for one of those guys I'd be up for it.

 

[gbgary]

Cobb, of the three, is probably the least likely to restructure... https://photos.app.goo.gl/DeJVjoSOwKdeeBI42

 

[sschind]

I'm looking at cap space. Simple as that. If we could ignore cap space. Then we could keep everyone.

If Jordy ,Cobb,Mathews was making 6 mil instead of 12, I would keep them all. But they don't .

Every year we come into the season with positions of no depth, or even need. It's usually dline, or ilb. Rb, or otackle.... this year would be wr, and olb maybe. But maybe not?

As far as the Cobb/Gordon trade. Lol. I was just saying we have options at this point of the season. Base wr corps being what we have, minus Jordy/Cobb. Adding Monty back in, to some degree.

On a plus side. We needed to add speed to our wr corps... now we could do that.

I'm sorry Slacker but I have to disagree with you on our WRs minus Nelson/Cobb. Its pretty close to abysmal with Adams as the only guy worthy of starting. we have guys with potential every year and every year they fail to live up to it. A high (like first round) WR might help but rookies do tend to struggle. There are some intriguing FAs available that could help our situation if we lose Nelson/Cobb but without spending a good chunk of the money we would save by cutting them we would in no way be OK at WR.

As much as I like Cobb though I would trade him for Josh Gordon in a heartbeat even with the doobie situation hanging over his head.

 

[thequick12]

Anybody would trade Cobb for Josh Gordon it's a steal for the Packers which is why John Dorsey won't trade Gordon for Cobb. Maybe if you say Cobb and a pick

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As much as I like Cobb though I would trade him for Josh Gordon in a heartbeat even with the doobie situation hanging over his head.

Anybody would trade Cobb for Josh Gordon it's a steal for the Packers which is why John Dorsey won't trade Gordon for Cobb. Maybe if you say Cobb and a pick

How about Cobb and a doobie for Gordon?

 

[OldSchool101]

Cobb, of the three, is probably the least likely to restructure... https://photos.app.goo.gl/DeJVjoSOwKdeeBI42

Cobb is also in a precarious position. GB just made Davante Adams the 4th highest paid receiver in the league. GB just doesn’t have the salary Cap to entertain several massive contracts and Cobbs agent is well aware of that already, so they’ll be no bluffing and no surprises when GB asks him extend at a lower annual or let him walk.
He may test himself on the open market but there’s a very good chance he’ll find he’s been a bit overpaid and either way he’s gonna take a moderate pay cut no matter where he lands (the same reason no one will trade for him it’s a raw deal) Less his 3.25M guarantee.
The question then really is.. are “2 birds in the bush” worth taking a chance on or will he go “Bird in hand” and sign a multi year deal in the +-8M annual range on a multi year deal and help us win a Championship?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

In the salary cap topic, everything was figured in. Rookie contracts, injured reserve replacements, etc. So some of your 17mil number is going to be spent on that stuff before and during the season... So his numbers were around $10mil after rookies and ir replacements.
My comment about having spent our whole cap already, is referencing that Thompson left us $10 mil in cap carry over. And right now we have 10 mil (of 17), spendable cap space. If we plan to keep 10 mil carry over, that means we are done in free agency....right now. All done. If the NFL decides not to raise the cap the maximum amount? Then we are dipping into savings already... right now.

The Packers will somehow have to create additional cap space to be able to sign a tight end, edge rusher and cornerback in free agency. The team has to have an adequate backup plan in place if they decide to release one of Matthews, Nelson and Cobb though.

the subject was "trading", as a way to bring in talent, when I made my comment. dt is the only position of depth on the team. as I said then, you have to give up something to get something. so I named 3 guys who they could actually get someone good for and their loss could be covered with their first pick. I wasn't advocating it just throwing it out there. standing pat though isn't going to make the Packers better. if they could get a good cb or wr for one of those guys I'd be up for it.

The Packers should use free agency to bring in an impact edge rusher and cornerback instead of trading one of their two best defensive linemen.

Anybody would trade Cobb for Josh Gordon it's a steal for the Packers which is why John Dorsey won't trade Gordon for Cobb.

I don't think that everybody would trade Cobb for Gordon as it's very risky to acquire him. While there's no doubt he's extremely talented he has only 42 receptions since the start of the 2014 season as he hasn't been able to stay out of trouble.

 

[McKnowledge]

Agreed, unfortunately it seems there aren't a lot of decent options available in free agency this offseason with Malcolm Butler probably being the best one. The Packers truly missed out on Bouye last year.

Maybe GB should go after Aaron Colvin.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Maybe GB should go after Aaron Colvin.

Colvin might present a decent option at a reasonable price.

 

[sschind]

How about Cobb and a doobie for Gordon?

I'm trying to think of a response. If we trade all the doobies will Gordon be happy here? or should we trade all the doobies to get rid of the temptation. Would that be a good concert the Doobie Brothers and the Temptations? Are the Doobie brothers or the Temptations even still alive?

 

[Poppa San]

Are the Doobie brothers or the Temptations even still alive?

Most of the original Doobie Brothers are still above ground level. All the original Temptations have joined the Celestial Chorus. Newer incarnations of the groups may be available to be hired though.

 

[thequick12]

[QUOTE="


I don't think that abybody would trade Cobb for Gordon as it's very risky to acquire him. While there's no doubt he's extremely talented he has only 42 receptions since the start of the 2014 season as he hasn't been able to stay out of trouble.[/QUOTE]

Gordon is a top 5 NFL receiver while Cobb is what top 50? And don't get me wrong I like Cobb I think he's a dependable target for Rodgers. He's pretty much always available he's just not a number 1 reciver. And of the 3 nelson Matthews and Cobb. I think he's the only one who could be replaced by a rookie receiver and by Montgomery. I think a guy like Christian Kirk in the 2nd round would more than replace Cobb and Trevor Davis while having the potential to develop into a number 1 ala Greg Jennings. But if gute can trade Cobb for Josh Gordon I think you're the only packer fan alive who wouldn't be stoked. The reward far outweighs the risk. You get rid of a player whose overpaid and in the last year of his contract so you could theoretically just resign him after the 2018 season and you get a guy who would have a huge season playing for the first real qb of his career. Provided he can either not smoke or he's figured out how to smoke and still pass a drug test.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Gordon is a top 5 NFL receiver while Cobb is what top 50? And don't get me wrong I like Cobb I think he's a dependable target for Rodgers. He's pretty much always available he's just not a number 1 reciver. And of the 3 nelson Matthews and Cobb. I think he's the only one who could be replaced by a rookie receiver and by Montgomery. I think a guy like Christian Kirk in the 2nd round would more than replace Cobb and Trevor Davis while having the potential to develop into a number 1 ala Greg Jennings. But if gute can trade Cobb for Josh Gordon I think you're the only packer fan alive who wouldn't be stoked. The reward far outweighs the risk. You get rid of a player whose overpaid and in the last year of his contract so you could theoretically just resign him after the 2018 season and you get a guy who would have a huge season playing for the first real qb of his career. Provided he can either not smoke or he's figured out how to smoke and still pass a drug test.

There's absolutely no doubt that Gordon is way more talented than Cobb but you have to consider that he's one incident away from being banned for life from the NFL.

 

[thequick12]

There's absolutely no doubt that Gordon is way more talented than Cobb but you have to consider that he's one incident away from being banned for life from the NFL.

And Cobb is essentially done as a packer after this season and that's if the new gm is cool with him counting 12.5 million against the cap if he's not, Cobb may just be waiting to get cut. Who knows what could happen? The one thing we know is you add Josh Gordon to davantae Adams and Jordy Nelson you instantly have the best recievers in the NFL.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And Cobb is essentially done as a packer after this season and that's if the new gm is cool with him counting 12.5 million against the cap if he's not, Cobb may just be waiting to get cut. Who knows what could happen? The one thing we know is you add Josh Gordon to davantae Adams and Jordy Nelson you instantly have the best recievers in the NFL.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the Packers to retain Cobb without his contract being restructured. By trading him for Gordon the team risks ending up with basically Adams and Nelson at the position though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There's absolutely no doubt that Gordon is way more talented than Cobb but you have to consider that he's one incident away from being banned for life from the NFL.

Who knows what could happen? The one thing we know is you add Josh Gordon to davantae Adams and Jordy Nelson you instantly have the best recievers in the NFL.

I think this is a great point (highlighted), we don't know what could happen, yet you say "the one thing we know is you add Josh Gordon.....instantly have the best receivers in the NFL" Do we really know that?

Josh Gordon's last big statistical year was 2013 and as Captain pointed out, is one incident away from being gone from the NFL. On the other hand, we have Randall Cobb who hasn't put up huge numbers since 2014, but has been a consistent part of the offense.

Someone like Josh Gordon is a huge risk IMO. Sure, he could be great, but I think the odds of him being a bust have to be considered. I would much rather see the Packers get Cobb to restructure and if he doesn't, spend the money on a FA that has better odds of contributing to the team for all 16+ games.