Reality of GOOD ILBers

[PackinMSP]

I keep reading all these threads about improving ILB.

The SAD reality is that getting a really, really good ILB is really, really, REALLY hard to find.

I don't think Blake Martinez is anywhere close to being a Pro Bowl or All Pro player, he just doesn't have that talent level...and he also does not make enough plays to warrant that. He had 5 sacks last year which was an analomy imo But he will lead the NFL in tackles and they'll pretty much all be past the LOS.

But the type of guys you all are wanting to replace him with are guys like

Luke Kuechly
Bobby Wagner
Deion Jones
Patrick Willis
Ryan Shazier (before he got hurt)

those types of guys...

Our FO should really look at spending a 1st, or at least a 2nd, round pick on a GOOD ONE... not a 3rd round Oren Burks type of "project" player

But it's really difficult to find a GOOD ILBer is my point. A lot of you all act like they just "grow on trees" lol which is not the case

 

[Poppa San]

Fair warning -- if this turns into another Martinez debate thread I'll close it.

 

[Mondio]

It already is. Nobody talks about Goodson and the rest of them hardly have 30 snaps between them all season

 

[Poppa San]

Yeah, I know. Probably devolve into an echo chamber of a bunch of threads we already have. Lines drawn, same posters rehashing the same points, electrons and photons dying needlessly for no gain. The way they are wasted some would think there is an unending supply.

 

[Mondio]

energy is neither created nor destroyed, it simply changes forms...

 

[Mondio]

But to stay with the topic, I won't talk about any specific linebackers other than I agree, the really good ones are hard to find. They don't grow on trees. But I also think we've gotten this level of play from past guys like Barrington and Bishop so the need to lock up with a long and somewhat expensive contract at the position wouldn't be the wisest thing to do.

 

[weeds]

energy is neither created nor destroyed, it simply changes forms...

You wascally wabbit.

 

[PackinMSP]

I think we should just stick with two guys who are late round picks who can just cover some but TACKLE consistently, no missed tackles, broken tackles, etc... Don't need to be a great cover ILB as we can bring in a Safety for those scenarios.

You have to remember that guys like Bishop and Barrington weren't really "fast guys" coming out of college but they could get downhill quick and make a SURE tackle which is what worked well. Both of those guys were like 6th, 7th round picks too I believe.

I think when TT missed out on Shazier a few years back that that was our last chance at a guy to really come in and solidify that position

 

[Mondio]

They weren't fast, but neither are any of the guys we have there now. I don't think Bishop and Barrington are answers we should be seeking, just an example that this is what we have and nobody wants to pay 10 million a year for that. Or they shouldn't. If we don't have our "answer" at ILB I don't think you over pay to keep average because you can get that again if you look.

 

[PackinMSP]

They weren't fast, but neither are any of the guys we have there now. I don't think Bishop and Barrington are answers we should be seeking, just an example that this is what we have and nobody wants to pay 10 million a year for that. Or they shouldn't. If we don't have our "answer" at ILB I don't think you over pay to keep average because you can get that again if you look.

Yeah that's true.

Churn and burn, just pay top price for the OLBers, which we have and they have made a huge difference and then draft young ILBers and keep them on their rookie contracts... unless you can get one of those top guys as I mentioned before who can do "everything" basically, but we're looking at a Top 15 pick most likely and on a year when there is a GOOD ILB, not every year

 

[RRyder]

I keep reading all these threads about improving ILB.

The SAD reality is that getting a really, really good ILB is really, really, REALLY hard to find.

I don't think Blake Martinez is anywhere close to being a Pro Bowl or All Pro player, he just doesn't have that talent level...and he also does not make enough plays to warrant that. He had 5 sacks last year which was an analomy imo But he will lead the NFL in tackles and they'll pretty much all be past the LOS.

But the type of guys you all are wanting to replace him with are guys like

Luke Kuechly
Bobby Wagner
Deion Jones
Patrick Willis
Ryan Shazier (before he got hurt)

those types of guys...

Our FO should really look at spending a 1st, or at least a 2nd, round pick on a GOOD ONE... not a 3rd round Oren Burks type of "project" player

But it's really difficult to find a GOOD ILBer is my point. A lot of you all act like they just "grow on trees" lol which is not the case

So far we're spending our 1st and 2nd round picks on a WR, TE, RT and now ILB..... I'm not a math wiz but I'm pretty sure doesnt check out.

We missed out when Bush didnt fall to us this past year but when out up against the other 3 positional needs ILB brings up the rear

 

[GleefulGary]

I'll be honest.

I don't think Martinez is that much better than Goodson. The problem is that they're too similar. Goodson is better in run support, and worse in coverage.


There's a lot of LB's I'd take over Blake. Off the top of my head:

Devin Bush
Fred Warner (he's a stud, btw)
Darius Leonard
Roquan Smith
Keuchly
Deion Jones
Bobby Wagner
KJ Wright
Eric Kendricks
Jarrad Davis
LVE
Tremaine Edmunds
Donta Hightower

I'm sure if I actually looked up more players, I could find more.

 

[Mondio]

So far we're spending our 1st and 2nd round picks on a WR, TE, RT and now ILB..... I'm not a math wiz but I'm pretty sure doesnt check out.

We missed out when Bush didnt fall to us this past year but when out up against the other 3 positional needs ILB brings up the rear

you better check your math there buster, they'll all be first round picks next year

Not to turn this into a draft thread too, but there likely isn't an impact ILB available when we'll be picking at 32. Since we'll be so low in the round, WR does become more likely in round one because the "best" rated of the other positions will likely be gone by then. In a normal year I'd say DL, OT, LB'er of any sort and excellent WR's are plentiful in the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

[PackFan2]

Fair warning -- if this turns into another Martinez debate thread I'll close it.

I think this belongs in the draft section.

But it's really difficult to find a GOOD ILBer is my point. A lot of you all act like they just "grow on trees" lol which is not the case

back to OP, I love Martinez (hes top 5-10 ILB) and I'll love for us to sign him but what others are saying is that there NEEDS to be someone to compliment him. We KNOW Martinez is average at best in coverage and is a solid starter. That's why people have been screaming for an athletic speedy ILB for years! Why people are mad is that there are multiple prospects (just look at our old draft prospect threads) that fit that role, YET Ted Thompson had not provided us with that type of player and had neglected to do so! Hindsight is 20/20 of course but that just shows that there are available mid-late round. I think Gute is on the right track but it hasn't plan out with Burks (who is a safety dressed as a linebacker). Nobody (I'm not at least but itd be awesome ) is expecting the next Wagner, Kuechly or Shazier. People are mad because we are missing a complimentary piece to Martinez like a Fred Warner, Matt Milano, Jerome Baker, Myles Jack (still mad we passed on him and Jaylon Smith) etc.. which we again we have not addressed in the draft or FA. I just want us to at least attempt to modernize the ILB position *AHEM trade for Shaquem Griffin.. *AHEM*

 

[PackFan2]

I'll be honest.

I don't think Martinez is that much better than Goodson. The problem is that they're too similar. Goodson is better in run support, and worse in coverage.


There's a lot of LB's I'd take over Blake. Off the top of my head:

Devin Bush
Fred Warner (he's a stud, btw)
Darius Leonard
Roquan Smith
Keuchly
Deion Jones
Bobby Wagner
KJ Wright
Eric Kendricks
Jarrad Davis
LVE
Tremaine Edmunds
Donta Hightower

I'm sure if I actually looked up more players, I could find more.

100%!! Unsure if it was with you or Dantes during the offseasons discussions we always have on ILB but its always the same. These were players we all wanted (of course some were out of reach) but the majority of them were in reach within 2 to 4th round, this why we as packer players see the trend and possibility.

- I will admit I was dead wrong on Roquan Smith. I thought he played too soft in college but I think that Bears historical Defense mentality rubbed off on him. Damn he beasting now.

 

[Mondio]

Are you really mad that Ted picked Kenny Clark instead of Myles Jack? I'm not I definitely wouldn't want Jaylon Smith over him.

 

[PackFan2]

Are you really mad that Ted picked Kenny Clark instead of Myles Jack? I'm not I definitely wouldn't want Jaylon Smith over him.

Yes, but that's just me (and i'm bias cause im an ex HS ILB and RB lol). Anyways if we drafted Jack or Smith we wouldnt be having his convo. We'd be talking about DL or something else.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

My only comment is that a lot of people, including the Packers, were seemingly thinking Oren Burks was the answer and it was just a matter of getting him back on the field and all will be fine at ILB. Now maybe they are bringing him back slowly and he isn't fully healed or in game shape, but he has played only 30 snaps in the last 3 games and IMO, the middle of the defense has looked worse during that time. The only ILB I have seen improvement from since the start of the season has been Goodson.

While quaility ILB's don't grown on trees, with a record of 6-1, if Gute has a chance to trade for a top 15 ILB, I would be in favor of it. As many have posted here and in other places, they are not easy to find, so if you can get one now for this season and beyond, just do it!

Final note, if I am Packers ILB coach Kirk Olivadotti, I'm thinking a lot about my future job security after the season ends if this continues.

 

[swhitset]

Fair warning -- if this turns into another Martinez debate thread I'll close it.

Yeah because this forum is so lively. Give me a break.. Usually by mid week there is nothing to read in here at all... Stop being so quick to shut down discussion.

 

[GleefulGary]

I think this belongs in the draft section.


back to OP, I love Martinez (hes top 5-10 ILB) and I'll love for us to sign him but what others are saying is that there NEEDS to be someone to compliment him. We KNOW Martinez is average at best in coverage and is a solid starter. That's why people have been screaming for an athletic speedy ILB for years! Why people are mad is that there are multiple prospects (just look at our old draft prospect threads) that fit that role, YET Ted Thompson had not provided us with that type of player and had neglected to do so! Hindsight is 20/20 of course but that just shows that there are available mid-late round. I think Gute is on the right track but it hasn't plan out with Burks (who is a safety dressed as a linebacker). Nobody (I'm not at least but itd be awesome ) is expecting the next Wagner, Kuechly or Shazier. People are mad because we are missing a complimentary piece to Martinez like a Fred Warner, Matt Milano, Jerome Baker, Myles Jack (still mad we passed on him and Jaylon Smith) etc.. which we again we have not addressed in the draft or FA. I just want us to at least attempt to modernize the ILB position *AHEM trade for Shaquem Griffin.. *AHEM*

I really don't think Martinez is a top 10 ILB. Top 20, maybe.

Those guys you name as complimentary pieces, like Fred Warner, are better than Martinez.

 

[mongoosev]

I'm going to call it, Martinez will have the game of his life against the pass against Kansas. Bets welcome!

 

[PackFan2]

I really don't think Martinez is a top 10 ILB. Top 20, maybe.

I disagree. Martinez is easily a top ten 3-4 defensive ILB.

 

[GleefulGary]

I disagree. Martinez is easily a top ten 3-4 defensive ILB.

Of teams playing a 3-4? Probably.


Of players that would fit as a 3-4 ILB in the NFL? No.

Besides, we rarely play base, so it seems pointless to get into distinctions like that.

My point is simple. I can find 20 LB's that could play his role better than he can. Some of that is a projection, because really, few play the role that he is. But most of football is a projection.

 

[Dantés]

The problem with Martinez isn't that he's not elite. The problem is that he is very difficult to pair with a complement, because he struggles to handle blockers in the running game and he struggles to cover in the passing game. If he was capable in one of those areas (not saying it's reasonable to expect both), he would be much easier to augment with another player. Because he's not very capable in either, the defense is forced to field personnel that is vulnerable one way or the other.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Somewhat Interesting Stats I saw today, doesn't really change my opinion on Blake Martinez though.

Since 2017...

• Blake Martinez: League-leading 362 combined tackles (233 solo, also leads league), 23 TFLs, 7 sacks.
• Bobby Wagner: 340 combined tackles (219 solo), 22 TFLs, 2.5 sacks.
• Luke Kuechly: 317 combined tackles (199 solo), 29 TFLs, 3.5 sacks.