question about trading players

[GreenBaySlacker]

GB isnt one to trade players. they build and then they play. But they have a great scouting group, and talent evaluator people. Ted like to pick high numbers of draft picks every year. Leading to us being forced to let a good number of "good" players go... Theres always 2 or 3 at least , that im shocked to see go, on final cuts...

I mentioned the potential trade for Cobb, if we could get a crappy teams 1st round pick. I was TOLD that Cobbs salary would mostly count against our cap, if we traded him. The guaranteed portion? Im not sure. I have heard before of this where teams pay for players that havnt played for them in years...dead cap is very very bad. I understand. And if a deal was written that way, I know that that player is most definately a keeper. in the eyes of the decision makers... But....

Could we use this glitch to our advantage? Consider if we were the ones trading picks for a chosen player from another team??? If we were to trade a 1st or 2nd rounder for a ILB or a TE. In a deal where the former team would have to cover a portion of their salary still??? thats a huge win IMO. On a few fronts...

One we get a proven veteran instead of a high draft pick, which is still a gamble...
Two. We dont have as many rookies making the roster, allowing us to not have to cut those 1 or 2 guys we really dont want to cut, on final cut day... Thats just a waste.
Three. salary cap. If a team has to cover a portion of a players salary who is now on our team. its a advantage. 2 or 3 deals of this nature could get an extra few million in cap value.

Now i dont know the rules on this matter. Dont agree with the rules i heard. I would think that if a player is traded, their contract goes with him. Completely. Guaranteed and all with no dead cap space for the old team... But if the rules is weird. I think there is a way to manipulate it and get some free value. Go on a superbowl run...

 

[mradtke66]

You have the penalty backwards and it's a big part of why trades are rare in the NFL.

Let's say we want to trade FOR a player. Let's say this player plays for the Chargers (just picked an AFC west at random. They have the smallest chance of not wanting to help a future opponent, since we just played them, not in the same conference, etc etc.)

The Player, Aaron Theadore Evanson (A TE. damn, I'm funny), has just signed a 4 year contract. For the safe of argument, let's pretend a 20 million signing bonus and 500,000 a year in base salary. That'd make the total deal worth 22 million. Obviously, this more than a little simplified, but 22/5 = 5.5 million a year. And that'd be his cap number each year. Pretty good. Certainly not going to bust the cap. In fact, this is part of the reasons for signing bonuses: you can spread the cap hit out over several years.

Now then, it comes draft time and with the Packers on the clock at #27, the Chargers see someone they just HAVE to have. They are smitten with this player and offer the Packers anyone for our number 1. We Pick A.T.E. The Chargers gulp, but they are willing to let him go, because the guy they want to draft is just that good in their eyes.

But now the crappy part (for the Chargers.) The immediately take an accelerated cap hit for the remaining signing bonus. So that perfectly fine 5.5 million cap number suddenly turns into 20 million for right now, this season. More than likely, the Chargers don't have the space and will go over the cap. So they either cannot make the trade or have to start cutting players to give them enough room to absorb the cap hit.

The Packer's hit in this situation would be 500,000/year. Just his base salary.

-----

The inverse is similar. Draft picks for players is pretty rare because draft picks were generally more valuable than players--rookies are cheap. They got more valuable with the new pay scale. Trading even a 3rd round pick is a bad "money ball" proposition. That 3rd round pick could turn into a start. He could also be a simple guy who fills a role, but he's only going to cost about 3 million total. About 600k per year. A pittance. And you've got him locked up for 4 years!

The player you traded for likely has only 1 year left on his deal. Other things happen, of course. If he's worth a 3rd rounder, he's pretty good. He's going to want a new deal--that's probably why you were able to get him in the first place. His old team didn't want to give him a new deal. So now you've traded away a 3rd round pick and then you probably have to give him a 10-20 million signing bonus and a contract that averages 5-8 million a year in total cap cost.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

good point on the veteran salary Vs rookie...

Im seeing some teams with HUGE salary cap room. With carry over and cap rising. I think Tampa has close to 80mil?! or something of the sort. Maybe in a position where a team that sucks (like tampa) change of GM, or coaches. Maybe a team switched back to a 4-3. What ever the reason. They are motivated to move a recently signed player, for a high draft pick. Even with the cap hit.... Since Picks are more valuable to a new GM, than cap they possibly wont spend.

Eagles are in position where the new guys are cleaning out Chip Kellys pile of free agents. A recently signed ILB(?) for like 50mil. Released him i think i read? Anyways. Wouldve been a good candidate for a mid round pick? Get that guaranteed money towards his salary... Long term deal already in place.... Fills a position of need...

Its like buying last years free agents at a repo auction after the former GM goes belly up...

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I just checked out CBS sports nfl and front article... Titans and Dolphins clean up chip kellys unwanted free agents......

hmmmmmm...

After reading farther. The big contract was for CB maxwell. Also mentioned was ILB Alonso... But both are already promised to miami...

Wonder what miami is paying maxwell of his 60 million dollar deal last year???

 

[mradtke66]

Let's cover each one.

Kiko signed a 4 yr(s) / $4,300,401 contract. That's the total. 3 years of signing bonus accelerated isn't very much to swallow. Crazier, he was already traded from the Bills to the Eagles, so they are on the hook for that dead money/accelerated cap hit. A little googling tells me the Eagles lost a mere 50,000 in cap, which was his workout bonus only.

Byron's contract, while huge, is cap friendly-ish. It only had a 6 million signing bonus (prorated bonus) and a 6.5 million roster bonus. Roster bonuses are NOT prorated, so his cap for 2015 was rather large: 6.5 roster bonus + base salary + prorated portion of the signing bonus.

These trades, while expensive-ish in terms of dead money, weren't crazy. And were at worst neutral in terms of cap. Cutting Byron appears to have saved 8.5m in cap, but carried a 8.5m dead money number. But thats only for one year.

 

[mradtke66]

Wonder what miami is paying maxwell of his 60 million dollar deal last year???

Base salaries and any other up coming bonuses: workout, roster, incentives, etc.

The signing bonus is paid for and done and it's just that: a bonus to sweeten the deal. It's another reason why trades are rare. Except in exceptional circumstances, the original signer (Eagles signing Maxwell) isn't getting that 12.5m in bonus money back. It's gone from their perspective.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

So for the next 5 years of maxwells contract. Eagles still have to pay the original guaranteed portion? front loaded or back loaded, doesnt matter? And maimi only has to pay the rest? (roughly half the 60mil number)

Seems like a deal...

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Base salaries and any other up coming bonuses: workout, roster, incentives, etc.

The signing bonus is paid for and done and it's just that: a bonus to sweeten the deal. It's another reason why trades are rare. Except in exceptional circumstances, the original signer (Eagles signing Maxwell) isn't getting that 12.5m in bonus money back. It's gone from their perspective.

ahhhhhhh. Im catching up. New team takes over future guaranteed bonus money ?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I mentioned the potential trade for Cobb, if we could get a crappy teams 1st round pick. I was TOLD that Cobbs salary would mostly count against our cap, if we traded him. The guaranteed portion? Im not sure. I have heard before of this where teams pay for players that havnt played for them in years...dead cap is very very bad. I understand. And if a deal was written that way, I know that that player is most definately a keeper. in the eyes of the decision makers.

Now i dont know the rules on this matter. Dont agree with the rules i heard. I would think that if a player is traded, their contract goes with him. Completely. Guaranteed and all with no dead cap space for the old team... But if the rules is weird. I think there is a way to manipulate it and get some free value. Go on a superbowl run...

It's actually pretty simple and makes a lot of sense. The remaining prorated portion of the signing bonus is mostly the only part of a player's contract counting against the cap of a team trading a player (roster and workout bonuses counting against the cap depend on when a player is traded). All other money involved for the remainder of the deal will count toward the cap of the team acquiring a player.

As you've mentioned Cobb in another thread, let me use him as an example. Cobb signed a four-year, $40 million deal with the Packers in 2015. It included a $13 million signing bonus which is prorated over the length of the contract, resulting in a cap hit of $3.25 million for each season.

If the Packers would trade Cobb before March 11 the remaining prorated portion of the signing bonus (three years at $3.25 million, totaling $9.75 million) would count against the team's cap in 2016.

On March 11, Cobb is due for a $4 million roster bonus which would count against the Packers cap as well if the team decides to trade him later during the offseason.

As a guideline, money that is being paid by a team to a player will count against that team's cap at some point. Base salary, workout and roster bonuses will count against the cap during the current season while the signing bonus is equally prorated over the entire length of the contract (maximum of five years).

These trades, while expensive-ish in terms of dead money, weren't crazy. And were at worst neutral in terms of cap. Cutting Byron appears to have saved 8.5m in cap, but carried a 8.5m dead money number. But thats only for one year.

Actually the Eagles trading Maxwell, Alonso and Murray will result in them saving $9.9 million of cap space for the 2016 season.

Trading Maxwell results in only $4.8 million in dead money as only the rest of his prorated signing bonus of $6 million will count towards the Eagles cap. The same applies for Murray ($5 million signing bonus, $4 million in dead money). Their new teams are taking over the rest of the guaranteed base salary within the contract.

 

[mradtke66]

So for the next 5 years of maxwells contract. Eagles still have to pay the original guaranteed portion? front loaded or back loaded, doesnt matter? And maimi only has to pay the rest? (roughly half the 60mil number)

Seems like a deal...

You're close, but still so far.

The Eagles are not "still paying" for the bonus. It has been paid. Past-Tense. Period, full stop. That's what a signing bonus is: A dump truck full of money, right now, as an incentive to sign.

The ongoing "penalty" for the Eagles is that they are responsible for account for that money against their Salary Cap Number. Of course, it's just for one year. Sometimes that helps you, sometimes it hurts.

 

[ivo610]

I cant see a team giving up a high pick for cobb tbh. A low 2nd maybe

 

[Half Empty]

Played five years. Played a lot in three. Of those, last year was his worst statistically. "What have you done for me (them) lately" has a lot to do with market value.