Preseason game 3 - at Denver

[Pokerbrat2000]

Trade Capers!

THAT.....might be the best move of the Season, but I think we may have to wait yet another season of injuries and bad draft picks to re-evaluate the brilliant mind of Dom Capers.

 

[HardRightEdge]

THAT.....might be the best move of the Season, but I think we may have to wait yet another season of injuries and bad draft picks to re-evaluate the brilliant mind of Dom Capers.

Yes, strictly prospective, not currently actionable. Like every year.

He's not terrible; it's just the genius is tired. The league has been looking at this stuff for just too many years. He could put a top 15 defense, and if the cards fall the right way, and the injuries are not disabling, that might be enough.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yes, strictly prospective, not currently actionable. Like every year.

He's not terrible; it's just the genius is tired. The league has been looking at this stuff for just too many years. He could put a top 15 defense, and if the cards fall the right way, and the injuries are not disabling, that might be enough.

That sure doesn't sound like "settling" on the part of the Green Bay Packers organization now does it? Not to fire up the Fire Capers crowd again, but that is the part of this that bothers me and it's been going on too long. Sure, we could get worse by firing Dom and bringing in some new young guy, but we could also get better. After last year, better seems to have a wider scope of opportunity than getting much worse.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There's absolutely no way the Packers should even think about trading Clinton-Dix. While the team seems to have quality depth at safety the backups are extremely inexperienced having combined to play a total of only 279 snaps in the league so far. It took Thompson several years to finally stabilize the position by drafting HHCD, there´s no reason to mess with it a week before the start of the season.

Like i said, I don't think they would ever consider this move and if they did, it should only be because they were rock solid on the guys behind him as well as trading him would be for a player that would substantially improve the odds of improving the overall defense. TT isn't making any blockbuster trades like that, especially with one of his own guys. Like you and most of us are saying, any improvement of this years roster is most likely going to come through signing FA's like Brooks. But NOW is the time to start getting that job done, while the opportunities still exist. If TT waits until October, when he finds Gilbert and Calvin as his starting OLB's due to injuries, game over.

 

[PackAttack12]

After last year, better seems to have a wider scope of opportunity than getting much worse.

Bingo.

 

[Sky King]

...If TT waits until October, when he finds Gilbert and Calvin as his starting OLB's due to injuries, game over.

With a year of growing pains --much like what occurred last season with some of the young DB's-- the season after they may develop into near-starting caliber OLB's or at least become competent backups. But much like last season the risk is that the growing pains will end-up in disappointment if they manage to make it to even make it to the playoffs. That falls clearly on TT's shoulders since he seems to pick a position or two each year that is razor-thin on experience. He's not an all-in kind of GM. He's more of a "Spahn and Sain and Pray for Rain" kind of GM.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With a year of growing pains --much like what occurred last season with some of the young DB's-- the season after they may develop into near-starting caliber OLB's or at least become competent backups. But much like last season the risk is that the growing pains will end-up in disappointment if they manage to make it to even make it to the playoffs. That falls clearly on TT's shoulders since he seems to pick a position or two each year that is razor-thin on experience. He's not an all-in kind of GM. He's more of a "Spahn and Sain and Pray for Rain" kind of GM.

With very limited short term memory of how that strategy panned out in the past for him. I am still holding out hope that we saw signs of a few cracks in the TT Mantra of Draft and Develop this offseason with 5 FA signings, but I also think that was more in direct response of how many key ones he lost and not just a "we need to improve from 2016". It was obvious to me and even more obvious now, that he left the OLB position woefully thin, hoping he figures out a way to fix that in the coming 10 days.

 

[PackAttack12]

With very limited short term memory of how that strategy panned out in the past for him. I am still holding out hope that we saw signs of a few cracks in the TT Mantra of Draft and Develop this offseason with 5 FA signings, but I also think that was more in direct response of how many key ones he lost and not just a "we need to improve from 2016". It was obvious to me and even more obvious now, that he left the OLB position woefully thin, hoping he figures out a way to fix that in the coming 10 days.

Here's to hoping he finds a way to pull it off.

 

[Mondio]

i honestly don't think Ted has changed. going back to '14, we were stacked and choked. '15 and '16 saw disappointment for similar, but still different reasons and with largely the same roster. Looking back, yes, some different players could have helped. But looking back is easy. This year, we had more FA's, but they were the same type as always. Guys that could help us, and at contracts that made sense. He didn't go crazy. He got more, but then our roster was one that needed more. Looking back, we probably could have used more in '15 or '16, but then it was almost the same as '14. Super Bowls were on the radar in each of those years. Not exactly rosters in need of going out and signing a lot of people. I've said it 100 times, from Ted on down, these guys believe in the work they do and in each other. It's why they give their guys a chance to prove themselves. it's not without it's drawbacks, but then moving on from guys the moment they don't look the part has it's share of pitfalls as well. It's what saw this team fight thru everything last year and finish a game away from the big one, instead of a 4-6 win season like so many other teams with different character from the top down would have done. To a man, these guys believe in themselves and each other. I'll take that any day.

 

[PackAttack12]

i honestly don't think Ted has changed. going back to '14, we were stacked and choked. '15 and '16 saw disappointment for similar, but still different reasons and with largely the same roster. Looking back, yes, some different players could have helped. But looking back is easy. This year, we had more FA's, but they were the same type as always. Guys that could help us, and at contracts that made sense. He didn't go crazy. He got more, but then our roster was one that needed more. Looking back, we probably could have used more in '15 or '16, but then it was almost the same as '14. Super Bowls were on the radar in each of those years. Not exactly rosters in need of going out and signing a lot of people. I've said it 100 times, from Ted on down, these guys believe in the work they do and in each other. It's why they give their guys a chance to prove themselves. it's not without it's drawbacks, but then moving on from guys the moment they don't look the part has it's share of pitfalls as well. It's what saw this team fight thru everything last year and finish a game away from the big one, instead of a 4-6 win season like so many other teams with different character from the top down would have done. To a man, these guys believe in themselves and each other. I'll take that any day.

I believe the team had enough in '15. The defense performed well in the playoffs against Washington and Arizona, even though the miscommunication in overtime eventually did us in. Injuries to key receivers really hurt. No Jordy, no Cobb, no Adams against Arizona. That plus a fat Eddie Lacy hampered our offense. But I have to admit, as much as I have bashed that defense in playoff situations, they weren't the issue in '15. Except when it really mattered late.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

i honestly don't think Ted has changed. going back to '14, we were stacked and choked. '15 and '16 saw disappointment for similar, but still different reasons and with largely the same roster. Looking back, yes, some different players could have helped. But looking back is easy. This year, we had more FA's, but they were the same type as always. Guys that could help us, and at contracts that made sense. He didn't go crazy. He got more, but then our roster was one that needed more. Looking back, we probably could have used more in '15 or '16, but then it was almost the same as '14. Super Bowls were on the radar in each of those years. Not exactly rosters in need of going out and signing a lot of people. I've said it 100 times, from Ted on down, these guys believe in the work they do and in each other. It's why they give their guys a chance to prove themselves. it's not without it's drawbacks, but then moving on from guys the moment they don't look the part has it's share of pitfalls as well. It's what saw this team fight thru everything last year and finish a game away from the big one, instead of a 4-6 win season like so many other teams with different character from the top down would have done. To a man, these guys believe in themselves and each other. I'll take that any day.

U-Rah Rah!

I get the philosophy and sometimes I feel like a spoiled ungrateful fan for wanting more No denying the Packers have been a top organization for many years and TT, MM and #12 have played a big role in that. The part of TT's regime that bothers me is that he plays it too close to the vest and it makes him look like he has settled to just be top 10 each year. I get you don't go out and bankrupt the team for one big shot at a title and screw the future, but he is so far away from that line, he shouldn't have to worry about inching a bit closer to it and solidifying a roster like he currently has with more veteran depth. That is what he appeared to finally be doing this last Spring in his signings of House, Bennett, Kendricks, Francois and Evans. But at closer examination, 3 of those were all necessary signings to replace lost starters. Kendricks and Francois were signings for depth at 2 positions that may have been fine without more depth. What he didn't do was add veteran depth to positions of need, OLB, CB, RB, OL. So unless some moves are made in the next 10 days, it looks like business as usual, go with a pretty decent group of 22 starters and pray injuries don't start exposing your young inexperienced depth and hope to develop that bottom portion of the roster for next year and beyond.

 

[thequick12]

"But the packers use more of an interchangeable safeties philosophy."

I'm well aware. It's all part of "Capers Confusion" which confuses his own less experienced players as often as the opponent. He'll start one safety up, the other back, then swat 'em pre-snap. That's fine against inexperienced or lousy QBs. Otherwise, it's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing or worse. And it's beating good QBs in the playoffs we're concerned about.

Of course Clinton-Dix would not be traded. Players need experience in this system to avoid getting confused. A guy can flash all he wants, but a couple of big mistakes can cost a game. I'm reminded of all the end zone bickering a few years back over who blew the coverage when M.D. Jennings was back there. As the years tick by and experience is accumulated, mistakes are less frequent.

Capers and "draft and develop" is a mismatch. Of course, his stuff is idiosyncratic so a vet FA might be starting from square one if he's not Julius Peppers.

Capers also alternates his safeties low/high out of the huddle for no apparent reason other than to spread around the wear and tear or for on-the-job training for position flexibility. You'd like to think it's for match-ups, but the skill sets are so similar its hard to see the point.

I would just as soon see Capers saddled with a true ball hawking free safety where he'd forced to quit this stuff.

Trade Capers!

I don't know enough to know about capers but I think the idea of having interchangeable safeties is a good one. Basically if it was me I'd just want 2 free safeties that can tackle like linebackers understandably that's hard to find. But the idea is good

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Both Burnett and dix are best suited for the ss position. But the packers use more of an interchangeable safeties philosophy.

I don´t believe Capers prefers to use interchangeable safeties but does it out of necessity.

He could put a top 15 defense, and if the cards fall the right way, and the injuries are not disabling, that might be enough.

Capers is more than capable of coordinating a defense good enough to win another Super Bowl on a team featuring an elite offense. The Packers finished 12th in points allowed in 2015 as he was able to field a unit without a glaring weakness while lacking any elite players. Unfortunately I'm concerned this year's squad lacks some talent and depth to get it done.

i honestly don't think Ted has changed. going back to '14, we were stacked and choked. '15 and '16 saw disappointment for similar, but still different reasons and with largely the same roster. Looking back, yes, some different players could have helped. But looking back is easy. Not exactly rosters in need of going out and signing a lot of people. I've said it 100 times, from Ted on down, these guys believe in the work they do and in each other. It's why they give their guys a chance to prove themselves. it's not without it's drawbacks, but then moving on from guys the moment they don't look the part has it's share of pitfalls as well.

The Packers enter this season with several question marks on defense, if any of these perceived weaknesses end up costing the team a trip to the Super Bowl Thompson shouldn't have the benefit of being excused based on fans solely using hindsight to criticize his moves. The one thing I get annoyed with is that no reasonable supporter is asking for TT to completely to turn the roster upside down but occasionally make a move to improve the chances of getting over the hump. While it definitely has worked out to hold on to players in various instances there are several examples of the front office allowing draft picks that never developed into decent to earn a spot on the roster for far too long as well.

I don't know enough to know about capers but I think the idea of having interchangeable safeties is a good one.

I'm absolutely convinced that defensive coaches prefer not to have to interchange their safeties at all as long as the talent level at the position allows them to.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

While it definitely has worked out to hold on to players in various instances there are several examples of the front office allowing draft picks that never developed into decent to earn a spot on the roster for far too long as well.

Bingo, my biggest gripe with over relying on the draft and develop model. I get it, you want to let the acorns grow into mighty oaks. But when you have too many acorns, that aren't ready to play when injuries start depleting your depth, you end up fielding too many saplings that just weren't ready to be taken out of the greenhouse.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Bingo, my biggest gripe with over relying on the draft and develop model. I get it, you want to let the acorns grow into mighty oaks. But when you have too many acorns, that aren't ready to play when injuries start depleting your depth, you end up fielding too many saplings that just weren't ready to be taken out of the greenhouse.

Geez, I didn't realize it takes a degree in dendrology to follow this forum.

I agree with your basic premise if I understood it correctly though.