Playing catch up.

[GreenBaySlacker]

Hello all. It's been a while. I got caught up fighting a fight. And there was no room for football the last 2-3 years. I'm out of touch with the current roster...

I'm aware that the brass sold out rodgers, and he pulled back to back MVP, championship appearances to make them look like total $%#&^%$#@ing $^%$#@%s. Which.... you just dont do... I also see their super sweet budget (that's sarcasm Wimm)has the 5 years after rodgers leaves, doomed to horrible failure.... makes me actually miss ted Thompson's stingy boring ***.

And you all know I'm good for a "I told you so", or two. But all those %$#^&%$ years I said the trenches needed to be more of a priority. Keep drafting Clark's. And have the next Bahk ready for the inevitable injury. I mean this is pro football, and those guys are flesh and bone. I give props to the guys. They played better than they could have. They definately played up.
But the whole ding dang **** reason I say stack the trenches, isnt because those big guys have big injuries. Or the big guys dont have the stamina to play at 110% all....the....time....
The reason was the championship games. Since Denver and Davis stole our trophy with undersized zone blockers(decades ago) we have been meeting big bad brawler Olines and Dlines in championship games. And they have literally steamrolled us....I cant even count how many superbowl caliber teams we had that got bumped because of a super dominant O or D line rolled us and we couldnt stop the hemmoraging.

I didnt even watch the last two championship games. But I already know exactly what happened. Even going all in. And spending every pick for the last damn near decade on secondary and OLBs. They couldnt stop the elite guys up front, playing championship football week 20...
Same result, dif yr.

Sammy Watkins..... that's what's up. That's our only ticket out. Fill gaps with the Sammy Watkins's of the league. Former top 1st round, former pro bowler/all pro guys who are down but not out.... as we seen with Rodgers the last two years. You bet against the good ones. And they make you eat it, more times than not.... so I like those guys. I'd rather have sammy Watkins coming in as #4 or #5 wr, playing against rookie cornerbacks and zoned out tweener safetys. But he will be extremely valuable, if he is used properly. Meaning... Dont hang the franchise on their shoulders and be surprised when the buckle mid season...


Anyways. This whole scenario Is a disaster, but optimistic outlook, we have some super talent. But as I said, I'm not in tune.

So could any of you help me by noting your favorite player coming in. Your favorite strategy. Your favorite advantage you think we have.... along with weaknesses...
What did I miss.

 

[tynimiller]

Hello all. It's been a while. I got caught up fighting a fight. And there was no room for football the last 2-3 years. I'm out of touch with the current roster...

I'm aware that the brass sold out rodgers, and he pulled back to back MVP, championship appearances to make them look like total $%#&^%$#@ing $^%$#@%s. Which.... you just dont do... I also see their super sweet budget (that's sarcasm Wimm)has the 5 years after rodgers leaves, doomed to horrible failure.... makes me actually miss ted Thompson's stingy boring ***.

And you all know I'm good for a "I told you so", or two. But all those %$#^&%$ years I said the trenches needed to be more of a priority. Keep drafting Clark's. And have the next Bahk ready for the inevitable injury. I mean this is pro football, and those guys are flesh and bone. I give props to the guys. They played better than they could have. They definately played up.
But the whole ding dang **** reason I say stack the trenches, isnt because those big guys have big injuries. Or the big guys dont have the stamina to play at 110% all....the....time....
The reason was the championship games. Since Denver and Davis stole our trophy with undersized zone blockers(decades ago) we have been meeting big bad brawler Olines and Dlines in championship games. And they have literally steamrolled us....I cant even count how many superbowl caliber teams we had that got bumped because of a super dominant O or D line rolled us and we couldnt stop the hemmoraging.

I didnt even watch the last two championship games. But I already know exactly what happened. Even going all in. And spending every pick for the last damn near decade on secondary and OLBs. They couldnt stop the elite guys up front, playing championship football week 20...
Same result, dif yr.

Sammy Watkins..... that's what's up. That's our only ticket out. Fill gaps with the Sammy Watkins's of the league. Former top 1st round, former pro bowler/all pro guys who are down but not out.... as we seen with Rodgers the last two years. You bet against the good ones. And they make you eat it, more times than not.... so I like those guys. I'd rather have sammy Watkins coming in as #4 or #5 wr, playing against rookie cornerbacks and zoned out tweener safetys. But he will be extremely valuable, if he is used properly. Meaning... Dont hang the franchise on their shoulders and be surprised when the buckle mid season...


Anyways. This whole scenario Is a disaster, but optimistic outlook, we have some super talent. But as I said, I'm not in tune.

So could any of you help me by noting your favorite player coming in. Your favorite strategy. Your favorite advantage you think we have.... along with weaknesses...
What did I miss.

No one sold out Rodgers...keeping Rodgers here and happy is why fiscally we are where we are...Bahk isn't even our best offensive lineman anymore most would say...we have drafted 6 "trench" guys in the past three drafts on defense and 9 on offensive side & brought in notably an all day starting OL (Turner) and starters at times in Veldheer and Kelly as well plus Whitney Mercilus last year and Smiths for the "trenches" as well in last three years....

Dude...our defenses (outside two lapses against TB) shut up TB and 49ers...our offenses SUCKED those two games collectively when it counted (actually the whole game against Niners) - you are vastly wrong there.


I'm sorry as out of touch as you claim to be...you have zero room for declaring Gute and such failures or names or insinuating they've messed up....

You don't mess up and win 39 games and three division titles the last three years being royal screw ups. I'd suggest read up on the roster, look over statlines and game snap/productions before

 

[Heyjoe4]

No one sold out Rodgers...keeping Rodgers here and happy is why fiscally we are where we are...Bahk isn't even our best offensive lineman anymore most would say...we have drafted 6 "trench" guys in the past three drafts on defense and 9 on offensive side & brought in notably an all day starting OL (Turner) and starters at times in Veldheer and Kelly as well plus Whitney Mercilus last year and Smiths for the "trenches" as well in last three years....

Dude...our defenses (outside two lapses against TB) shut up TB and 49ers...our offenses SUCKED those two games collectively when it counted (actually the whole game against Niners) - you are vastly wrong there.


I'm sorry as out of touch as you claim to be...you have zero room for declaring Gute and such failures or names or insinuating they've messed up....

You don't mess up and win 39 games and three division titles the last three years being royal screw ups. I'd suggest read up on the roster, look over statlines and game snap/productions before

That's a good point. 39 regular season wins don't happen by accident. And for Slacker to describe the whole thing as a disaster - huh?

And as far as Gluten is concerned - I had my concerns when he got the nod over Wolf, and the Love pick was just a mistake. But he has done an outstanding job as GM IMO. Wolf still has some things to learn before he's ready for a GM gig. I'd say we did very well replacing TT (RIP) with Gluten.

 

[El Guapo]

Advantage? That we've got LaFleur and Gutekunst at the helm. Those guys have us in the right direction.
Disadvantage? Clearly its at WR but it's not for a lack of trying. People who bring up the whole "Packers haven't used a 1st round pick on WR" line have zero clue what they are talking about. Rodgers has been surrounded by Pro Bowl receivers for most of his career. Yes - he makes them top players but why waste a team's limited draft capital on WR and then let the rest of the team go in the hole.

The Packers have more balance than I can remember in a long time. All of the positions except WR are pretty good, and one could argue that with Rodgers at the helm its the one position where he will compensate for what the group lacks. You never know if you have a championship team. However, the Packers have had championship quality the past several years but have just lacked the final push to get there. We all know that's more art than science, meaning you can't manufacture that final piece in the draft room - it needs to come together via team chemistry. It only happens to one team every season but we've been in the right place to do it every year. Most fans would kill to be in our position.

 

[OldSchool101]

While I might disagree with several general points, it’s in the past and basically irrelevant in defending the past. As far as your question as to Roster moves.

The bad. We lost an elite WR and a deep threat (although I believe MVS had hit a plateau in GB). Yet the only argument someone can legitimately make is we are weaker at WR as a whole. Although my contention is I don’t think it’s nearly as catastrophic as folks are projecting. No you don’t ever want to lose any great player, but $30M/yr for anyone outside of QB is preposterous. Particularly when you can use that to bring back 4-5 key veterans that would’ve otherwise been sent packing. That and a #22 and #53 draft selection bonus.

So we used #22 for one of the best Defenders on the FBS Championship Defense (LB, Quay Walker) I had us taking Wyatt at #22, so getting 2 top Georgia players is massive. I don’t think we expected Wyatt to make it to #28 and we desperately needed a WR, but choosing D. Wyatt over a WR took intestinal fortitude by our GM. It speaks volumes as to Wyatts worth and the mental strength of Brian in the face of scrutiny. Then we doubled down and got aggressive with our bonus and nailed a guy we might’ve otherwise taken at #28, WR Christian Watson.

As far a FA. We picked up a highly motivated Sammy Watkins, who btw was reportedly training intensely this week with his old teammate and trainer, squatting 450lbs and since added 5+lb muscle. Word on the street is he wants to be “College Sammy” dominant. It’s my opinion he’s all in and this is a contract year mixed with a career year and he 100% knows it. He has an MVP QB but this time, no Tyreek Hill type player overshadowing. Its the perfect storm and I think he’ll surprise us. It wouldn’t shock me to see him finish in that (70rec-900+)


Then we drafted 3 more OL and 3 total WR that I had inside that top college 25 at their position from all of Collegiate level. We have above average versatility and big draft capital spent on OL, so no need for “Trench concerns”. Someone will rise like leaven on OL and DL is arguably a very deep room with lots of options.

DL got Reed from Seattle who’s Mr interior consistent, so we definitely won’t be getting pushed around in the trenches anymore.

In finality, the ingredient that makes it all combust is Aaron Rodgers in Matt’s system for 3 seasons. As hard as I am on Rodgers, as our QB, #12 has proven very formidable navigating this MLF ship and it’s possible he hadn’t even peaked yet. Switching out his best fighter pilot (Davante) will not change the ultimate dynamics and effectiveness of an entire Battleship, she’s a beaut and she’s fully armed and capable of hitting you on the ground, at Sea or in the Skies

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Dude...our defenses (outside two lapses against TB) shut up TB and 49ers...our offenses SUCKED those two games collectively when it counted (actually the whole game against Niners) - you are vastly wrong there.

The defense gave up 31 points against the Bucs in the 2020 NFCCG. I don't consider that shutting down Tampa's offense by any means.

Disadvantage? Clearly its at WR but it's not for a lack of trying. People who bring up the whole "Packers haven't used a 1st round pick on WR" line have zero clue what they are talking about.

It's not about the Packers not having spent a first round pick on a wide receiver in a long time. There's a valid argument to be made that the team hasn't used enough resources to upgrade the position in the past several years, mostly relying on Rodgers and Adams to get it done. That might end up haunting the offense with Adams gone.

All of the positions except WR are pretty good, and one could argue that with Rodgers at the helm its the one position where he will compensate for what the group lacks.

I don't consider the talent level at tight end to be pretty good either. That might end up being a huge issue with a lack of talent at wide receiver as well.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The defense gave up 31 points against the Bucs in the 2020 NFCCG. I don't consider that shutting down Tampa's offense by any means.



It's not about the Packers not having spent a first round pick on a wide receiver in a long time. There's a valid argument to be made that the team hasn't used enough resources to upgrade the position in the past several years, mostly relying on Rodgers and Adams to get it done. That might end up haunting the offense with Adams gone.



I don't consider the talent level at tight end to be pretty good either. That might end up being a huge issue with a lack of talent at wide receiver as well.

I'm more concerned about the TE group. If no real receiver emerges from that group (I think the blocking will be fine), it's one less guy the opponent D needs to worry about. And we're kinda down to one option - Tonyan returns from a torn ACL to 2020 form. A big ask. (People have been talking about DeGuarra but c'mon, he's a hybrid FB/TE. I don't expect to see him splitting the seam for 20 yard plus gains. Maybe Davis?)

I wouldn't be surprised if the O played exceptionally well, average, or even below average. Rodgers is gonna earn every nickel of that $50 million this year. It's just a damn good thing he's still the QB, whether you like the guy or not.

 

[El Guapo]

It's not about the Packers not having spent a first round pick on a wide receiver in a long time. There's a valid argument to be made that the team hasn't used enough resources to upgrade the position in the past several years, mostly relying on Rodgers and Adams to get it done. That might end up haunting the offense with Adams gone.

Not using a 1st round pick is all that it's about to some people, and they are flat out wrong. That was my point.

If you want to take it in a different direction that's fine. I agree with you that there is an argument to be made about resources, but we know what a team without defense looks like in the playoffs. The Packers have been trying for many years to fix that deficiency. We can all argue about it in circles, but a team has to devote its resources across eleven or so position groups each season, with generally only 7 draft picks. This goes back to our discussion in the other thread. You strive for balance knowing full well that you will end up deficient in some position groups and stacked in others, just based on how players pan out and many other factors. I think that the Packers have drafted and acquired players that they thought would work at WR. Right now it appears to be a deficient group. We will see. They have had tremendous success picking mid-round WRs to provide Rodgers with weapons. Lately it hasn't worked. You are a genius when things work and a bum when they fail.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm more concerned about the TE group. If no real receiver emerges from that group (I think the blocking will be fine), it's one less guy the opponent D needs to worry about. And we're kinda down to one option - Tonyan returns from a torn ACL to 2020 form. A big ask. (People have been talking about DeGuarra but c'mon, he's a hybrid FB/TE. I don't expect to see him splitting the seam for 20 yard plus gains. Maybe Davis?)

Good points.
There’s Something I remembered when checking combine performances. Tyler Davis ran a 2.59 20yd split time. He’s super quick for 6’4 1/2. That’s a 99%tile run among TE’s. Also ran a 4.71-40, which is well above average.

As a comparison, Gronk ran a 2.68 20yd split coming out of college which is very, very fast for a large man. (93%tile) for a 6’6” TE he was a blazing 4.68-40 yard time.

Deguara is still above average, his 20yd split of 2.79 sec is in the above average 64%tile area. He’s also ran a 4.72-40 time. Another point is he has very good hands, which is super important.

I really think we’ll see Tyler Davis get more looks now that’s he’s entrenched in this system. He’s a recent convert to TE, but he’s also played at WR and has some overall solid physical gifts. He also played QB at the college level, I wouldn’t mind seeing Rich draw up a trick play

 

[Heyjoe4]

Good points.
There’s Something I remembered when checking combine performances. Tyler Davis ran a 2.59 20yd split time. He’s super quick for 6’4 1/2. That’s a 99%tile run among TE’s. Also ran a 4.71-40, which is well above average.

As a comparison, Gronk ran a 2.68 20yd split coming out of college which is very, very fast for a large man. (93%tile) for a 6’6” TE he was a blazing 4.68-40 yard time.

Deguara is still above average, his 20yd split of 2.79 sec is in the above average 64%tile area. He’s also ran a 4.72-40 time. Another point is he has very good hands, which is super important.

I really think we’ll see Tyler Davis get more looks now that’s he’s entrenched in this system. Wouldn’t surprise me to see him as our primary TE yardage producer outside of Tonyan (provided he makes full recovery).

Thanks. I had no idea DeGuarra was that fast. Maybe need to rethink that. It seems Davis' star is on the rise, though I have nothing to back that up. Just a gut feel.

 

[OldSchool101]

Thanks. I had no idea DeGuarra was that fast. Maybe need to rethink that. It seems Davis' star is on the rise, though I have nothing to back that up. Just a gut feel.

He’s a recent convert to TE, but he’s also played at WR and has some overall solid physical gifts. He also played QB at the college level, I wouldn’t mind seeing Rich draw up a trick play.

 

[Heyjoe4]

He’s a recent convert to TE, but he’s also played at WR and has some overall solid physical gifts. He also played QB at the college level, I wouldn’t mind seeing Rich draw up a trick play.

Well, between Tonyan, DeGuarra, and Davis - I hope they can find one guy who can put up 400 yards and 5-8 TDs. A big ask this year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

They have had tremendous success picking mid-round WRs to provide Rodgers with weapons. Lately it hasn't worked. You are a genius when things work and a bum when they fail.

The Packers actually have had tremendous success drafting wide receivers in the second round with James Jones being a third rounder. They didn't have any using mid to late round picks on the position in the past either though.

With that being said after selecting Adams in 2014 Amari Rodgers at #85 was the earliest the team used a pick on a receiver before selecting Watson this year.

Therefore it shouldn't come as a huge surprise the position is lacking talent.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The Packers actually have had tremendous success drafting wide receivers in the second round with James Jones being a third rounder. They didn't have any using mid to late round picks on the position in the past either though.

With that being said after selecting Adams in 2014 Amari Rodgers at #85 was the earliest the team used a pick on a receiver before selecting Watson this year.

Therefore it shouldn't come as a huge surprise the position is lacking talent.

Yeah they've neglected the position in the draft, or maybe not neglect. As long as they had Adams, they seemed content. That was a mistake. And it might be a case of putting too much on Rodgers.

As I recall, Tom Brady had a number of years where the WR position was a revolving door. It didn't seem to matter.

 

[El Guapo]

The Packers actually have had tremendous success drafting wide receivers in the second round with James Jones being a third rounder. They didn't have any using mid to late round picks on the position in the past either though.

You're really offending all of the Jared Abbrederis, Brett Swain, and Jeff Janis fans out there.

 

[tynimiller]

The Packers actually have had tremendous success drafting wide receivers in the second round with James Jones being a third rounder. They didn't have any using mid to late round picks on the position in the past either though.

With that being said after selecting Adams in 2014 Amari Rodgers at #85 was the earliest the team used a pick on a receiver before selecting Watson this year.

Therefore it shouldn't come as a huge surprise the position is lacking talent.

Concur with Capt here. The team has truly excelled in finding legit WRs in the second round of the draft for years now. That isn't to say they have done abysmal in middle and late rounds...let's look at the last few decades years (not including this Aprils):

2007 - David Clowney (5th)...never played a game for us but did put up two 100+ yard seasons with others...underachieved by not making our initial.

2008 - Brett Swain (7th) was precisely if not hair more than one can expect out of a 7th rounder.

2013 - Charles Johnson (7th) & Kevin Dorsey (7th) both being Day 3s didn't do anything more or less than expected for a WR in their draft spot.

2014 - Jared Abbrederis (5th) & Jeff Janis (7th) - Jared could never click and stay healthy if memory serves...honestly Janis overachieved given his ST performances alone, chipping in some memorable offensive snaps as well is far more than someone can expect.

2015 - Ty Montgomery (3rd)...not a true WR and not a true RB...still in the league and while I give to the stance he underachieved for a 3rd rounder - it wasn't by too terribly much, and honestly I still like his chance in our system had he not had that terrible fumble.

2016 - Trevor Davis (5th)...he could return kicks for sure...but never turned into much else. Cannot really say one should expect more or less out of a 5th rounder...wash to me here.

2017 - DeAngelo Yancey (5th) & Malachi Dupre (7th)....IMO Yancey underdelivered slightly as unlike Davis in 2016 he never provided anything...Dupre never clicked but as a 7th no expectations.

2018 - J'mon Moore (4th) & MVS (5th) & EQSB (6th).....Moore underachieved, MVS blew out his expectations and EQSB was what would be expected for a 6th rounder.

2020 - Amari Rodgers...too early to tell, not a good start year 1.

5th round on I'd say their averages of "hits" is fairly good as in the last 15 years of those they took 11 guys...and of those you got MVS, Janis, EQSB and Trevor Davis who to varying degrees were above their slots in production....rest zero noteworthy contributions IMO. That is just shy of 40% "hit" rate and 10% bonafide awesome rate (MVS) in that area.

 

[jetfixer]

I’m I the only one that thinks Arron was too dependent on 17? They are both tremendous players, but I hope this forces some other things to open up a bit.

 

[tynimiller]

I’m I the only one that thinks Arron was too dependent on 17? They are both tremendous players, but I hope this forces some other things to open up a bit.

Aaron's track record without Davante is insanely impressive. While the lethality of the offense may not be there, I personally think the unpredictability this offense can hold with the RB duo and QB manning it could be special....if MLF can gameplan that to be a strength I really do believe we can once again be near the top of the NFC and have a real shot.

 

[Voyageur]

I think Rodgers will show everyone this year that the job of getting the ball into the receivers hands is on his shoulders, and several players will play varying roles in getting it done.

I expect the yardage will be solid but spread around to more players, not concentrated on one, and that there will be a real push by players to be part of that mix.

As for Adams, he should have a very good year, because the Raiders and Carr will do everything they can to prove that he's the right guy to get them where they want to go.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Aaron's track record without Davante is insanely impressive. While the lethality of the offense may not be there, I personally think the unpredictability this offense can hold with the RB duo and QB manning it could be special....if MLF can gameplan that to be a strength I really do believe we can once again be near the top of the NFC and have a real shot.

I agree with you. There is talent in the WR group, it's just that most of it is latent because a player is a 1. NFL vet new to the Packers, 2. Packer veteran who has played second string to Adams, and 3. Rookie. All of these guys have talent, and some likely have some hidden talent that will start to show now that AR can't always go to Adams.

I expect a great year from this team. At a minimum, it should be fun to watch. I guarantee there are players who will have career years that we just don't see coming. On all three teams, there are opportunities for ambitious guys to make a name for themselves, and maybe win a championship in the process.

Just one word of advice I have given myself and share with you all. Treat this season with Rodgers, and every season after with Rodgers, as if it will be his last. Forget about his personality and ego. Appreciate his excellence at the position. And he's our QB. So enjoy and don't think too far ahead.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think Rodgers will show everyone this year that the job of getting the ball into the receivers hands is on his shoulders, and several players will play varying roles in getting it done.

I expect the yardage will be solid but spread around to more players, not concentrated on one, and that there will be a real push by players to be part of that mix.

As for Adams, he should have a very good year, because the Raiders and Carr will do everything they can to prove that he's the right guy to get them where they want to go.

I agree with all of your points V, well said. As for the last point, I gotta believe Adams can sense he's on the right track for the HOF. Aside from a championship, that's what he's playing for. Carr is not Rodgers, but Adams is a unique talent who will make Carr look better than he is. And Carr is not a slouch at QB.

It would be amazing if the Packers met the Raiders in the SB. I would love to see that.

 

[OldSchool101]

We have a team that has been a very consistent Winner for 3 consecutive seasons. While I appreciate all the Davante sentiment and he’s a fantastic player, 1 man outside of maybe QB does not steer this Freighter.
That said, I don’t think anyone can argue that our Defense will be worse than 2021. Even taking into consideration “depth”, I don’t think that the majority in here would choose our 2021 Defense over this one. So any argument that this 2022 team is somehow worse, is a tough one to defend.

At best, we can pick on 1 to maybe 2 position groups regressing out of 10.
On the flip side it’s CB, ILB, iDL all arguably improved. Add to that a very good likelihood that ST will improve at least slightly. That goes in favor of a similar to slightly better team overall.

If, for any reason whatsoever, this Receiving group proves that it can simply hold its own and erase some major concerns? Then in that case, this 2022 total talent pool is hands down better than the 2021 squad.

The bigger outlier for me personally on success oddly isn’t our WR group, because that will conceivably be totally and completely washed by improved play at CB, iDL, ILB and ST units. A more concerning argument for me is how other teams will ascend or regress. We can’t expect to be playing the 2021 version of teams, we have to assume our opponent is better also.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You're really offending all of the Jared Abbrederis, Brett Swain, and Jeff Janis fans out there.

I highly doubt there are a lot of them out there

 

[Heyjoe4]

I highly doubt there are a lot of them out there

Janis probably has a fan club. Probably a pretty small membership and probably people who drink a lot of beer. Just guessing.