Overall Graft Grades, PF "experts"

[rmontro]

The 2016 team wasn't loaded with talent though. Rodgers carried that squad on his back after the Packers started 4-6 and carried them to the NFCCG.

I didn't think they were loaded with talent either. That team didn't impress me. Even though they got to the NFCCG, they were a long way from being champs. Atlanta destroyed them. My point was Rodgers can carry a half decent team. I see no reason to believe that has changed, IF he can stay healthy.

Gute's had two years to build the roster. He's had two good drafts plus he's been active in free agency. There should be enough there for Rodgers to do something with. The defense has had an infusion of talent and they are out of excuses. I think they should make the playoffs, but if they don't they should be right on the cusp.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The roster and cap were aging out. We didn't have the replacements that were ready to step in like in so many other years. A couple poor drafts and aging roster brought us here.

The Packers actually had a pretty young team in 2016 (7th youngest overall, second on defense) but completely lacked much needed talent still on rookie deals courtesy of some terrible drafts.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/snap-weighted-age-2016-nfl-rosters

My point was Rodgers can carry a half decent team. I see no reason to believe that has changed, IF he can stay healthy.

I definitely agree with you about that. If Rodgers stays healthy and performs on the level we're used to this year's team could have enough talent for him to carry it all the way.

 

[Mondio]

youth is relative. Our core of players was aging. the guys we invested in were increasingly injured or already OUT of the league or off the team. I already mentioned the failed drafts and guys not developed or capable of filling in behind. I wasn't trying to say the team was old, but by the time Gute was taking over, we had a handful of aging, injured, and well paid low producing players without replacements. It happens. Even with what I think are mostly decent moves in his 1st 2 seasons, a couple of things could bring this whole thing down too.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

youth is relative. Our core of players was aging. the guys we invested in were increasingly injured or already OUT of the league or off the team. I already mentioned the failed drafts and guys not developed or capable of filling in behind. I wasn't trying to say the team was old, but by the time Gute was taking over, we had a handful of aging, injured, and well paid low producing players without replacements. It happens. Even with what I think are mostly decent moves in his 1st 2 seasons, a couple of things could bring this whole thing down too.

I tried really hard to convince a lot of posters around here that the Packers lacked talent for quite some time before the Thompson can't do no wrong crowd finally realized it as well.

 

[AmishMafia]

I tried really hard to convince a lot of posters around here that the Packers lacked talent for quite some time before the Thompson can't do no wrong crowd finally realized it as well.

And, despite being asked multiple times, you cant seem to explain how players leave the Packers and mysteriously become talented. How did Hayward and Hyde suddenly become talented all-pro? How is Randall now looking very good for the browns? Do you think if the Packers had these 3 guys playing at or near all pro level in our backfield the defense would have been better? Do you think if we had a great defensive backfield we could have spent more draft capital elsewhere?

The Thompson can do no wrong crowd only exists in your mind. The thompson is evil because he didnt kiss Brett's *** crowd never grew up or bothered to gather any facts. An intelligent crowd realizes Thompson did very well as a GM through much of his career and is very responsible for a lot of success including a SB. Waned a bit at the end, to be sure. But his biggest failing was not making a coaching change. A lot of talent TT drafted went to waste.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And, despite being asked multiple times, you cant seem to explain how players leave the Packers and mysteriously become talented. How did Hayward and Hyde suddenly become talented all-pro? How is Randall now looking very good for the browns? Do you think if the Packers had these 3 guys playing at or near all pro level in our backfield the defense would have been better? Do you think if we had a great defensive backfield we could have spent more draft capital elsewhere?

I don't know what point you're trying to make as it was Thompson's decision not to retain Hayward and Hyde.

The Thompson can do no wrong crowd only exists in your mind. The thompson is evil because he didnt kiss Brett's *** crowd never grew up or bothered to gather any facts. An intelligent crowd realizes Thompson did very well as a GM through much of his career and is very responsible for a lot of success including a SB. Waned a bit at the end, to be sure. But his biggest failing was not making a coaching change. A lot of talent TT drafted went to waste.

As I've mentioned repeatedly there's absolutely no doubt that overall Thompson was a very successful general manager. His performance significantly regressed over the last few years of his tenure though.

 

[AmishMafia]

I don't know what point you're trying to make as it was Thompson's decision not to retain Hayward and Hyde..

They didnt play well while with the Packers so they were replaced. Why did they underperform? Because they weren't talented or because of poor coaching?

So if you feel TT should have kept them because suddenly they were going to play like All Pros you must be under the impression that suddenly they would have become talented and been great.

My feelings are, they would have continued to play at a lower level under Capers.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

They didnt play well while with the Packers so they were replaced. Why did they underperform? Because they weren't talented or because of poor coaching?

So if you feel TT should have kept them because suddenly they were going to play like All Pros you must be under the impression that suddenly they would have become talented and been great.

My feelings are, they would have continued to play at a lower level under Capers.

While you might be right about Capers not being able to have both Hayward and Hyde perform up to potential ultimately it was Thompson's decision to hold on to the coaching staff instead of those two players.

 

[AmishMafia]

While you might be right about Capers not being able to have both Hayward and Hyde perform up to potential ultimately it was Thompson's decision to hold on to the coaching staff instead of those two players.

Yes. TTs failing was to not see the coaching issue and make changes. But that is not what you think. Or you wouldn't have posted this:

I tried really hard to convince a lot of posters around here that the Packers lacked talent for quite some time before the Thompson can't do no wrong crowd finally realized it as well.

It is my belief that there was talent and it was not developed by the coaching staff. As occurred throughout Capers career. It's a pattern. So, maybe TT was still picking good players, they just were wasted.

As an example, Lombardi inherited a team with that finished last in the NFl. However, the roster had 15 Allpro or HOF players. That's a lot of talent that failed to win. Coaching is huge.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes. TTs failing was to not see the coaching issue and make changes. But that is not what you think. Or you wouldn't have posted this:

It is my belief that there was talent and it was not developed by the coaching staff. As occurred throughout Capers career. It's a pattern. So, maybe TT was still picking good players, they just were wasted.

As an example, Lombardi inherited a team with that finished last in the NFl. However, the roster had 15 Allpro or HOF players. That's a lot of talent that failed to win. Coaching is huge.

It was pretty obvious last season that the overall talent level on the roster Gutekunst inherited from Thompson wasn't good enough by any means.

In addition Hayward and Hyde were the only players leaving Green Bay who excelled with their new teams. You're fooling yourself when you truly believe that Thompson did a good job late during his tenure as the general manager.

 

[AmishMafia]

It was pretty obvious last season that the overall talent level on the roster Gutekunst inherited from Thompson wasn't good enough by any means.

In addition Hayward and Hyde were the only players leaving Green Bay who excelled with their new teams. You're fooling yourself when you truly believe that Thompson did a good job late during his tenure as the general manager.

Obvious how? Your assertion that if a team does poorly, the talent is lacking is a little superficial on the analysis.

If most players are playing below their potential, the team will suffer. Whether they are all pro and play average or they are good players and play below average.

So again, how do you personally differentiate poor coaching from a lack of talent?

What I have been seeing the last few years is a poorly coached team. Players out of position. Strange game plans. Arguments in the secondary on coverage. Offensive game plans avoiding purposely an effective run game.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Obvious how? Your assertion that if a team does poorly, the talent is lacking is a little superficial on the analysis.

If most players are playing below their potential, the team will suffer. Whether they are all pro and play average or they are good players and play below average.

So again, how do you personally differentiate poor coaching from a lack of talent?

What I have been seeing the last few years is a poorly coached team. Players out of position. Strange game plans. Arguments in the secondary on coverage. Offensive game plans avoiding purposely an effective run game.

Hayward and Hyde (who performed at a pretty good level in Green Bay as well) being the only one excelling with other teams after leaving the Packers over the past few years is a pretty good indicator the talent level wasn't significantly better than the result might make you think.

And to be honest I actually don't care about it that much. The results speak for themselves.

The Packers went 24-23 to end Thompson's tenure from week 7 in 2015 on despite Rodgers playing out of his mind during a 14 game stretch during that period in which he carried the team to a 12-2 record. That's not good enough while having the best quarterback in the league, no matter what.

Ultimately the GM is the one responsible for the team's record.

 

[Mondio]

I tried really hard to convince a lot of posters around here that the Packers lacked talent for quite some time before the Thompson can't do no wrong crowd finally realized it as well.

you tried really hard that's for sure. I tend to think most of our perceptions were different than the ones you think some of us had. I'm not having another debate about things long since over and discussed. 14-15-16 saw super bowl capable rosters. There were poor drafts and guys that could have or should have been better that weren't. A lot of things happened, part of which was Ted not making the right choice. It's not a secret and it wasn't revealed by you.

If it seemed like there was a "ted can do no wrong" crowd it was likely because they were sick of everything is Ted's fault crowd

 

[AmishMafia]

Hayward and Hyde (who performed at a pretty good level in Green Bay as well) being the only one excelling with other teams after leaving the Packers over the past few years is a pretty good indicator the talent level wasn't significantly better than the result might make you think.

And to be honest I actually don't care about it that much. The results speak for themselves.

The Packers went 24-23 to end Thompson's tenure from week 7 in 2015 on despite Rodgers playing out of his mind during a 14 game stretch during that period in which he carried the team to a 12-2 record. That's not good enough while having the best quarterback in the league, no matter what.

Ultimately the GM is the one responsible for the team's record.

I can absolutely agree with the last statement. Ted did not get it done towards the end of his career and he is responsible. But you keep stating that his drafts sucked and the team had a low level talent. I'm challenging you to think. To me it is obvious that there was a much bigger coaching problem and I have been calling for change since 2011.

But you just proved my line of thinking. Your only evidence is the Packers record as proving a lack of talent. And yes, 2 All Pros in the backfield can have a big effect on a defense. And it's easy to figure that if these 2 guys underperformed, other players also underperformed.

If it seemed like there was a "ted can do no wrong" crowd it was likely because they were sick of everything is Ted's fault crowd

Excellent!!

 

[rmontro]

I don't think it was all that black and white. Seems to me that Thompson and Capers both bore their share of responsibility for the failures.

 

[HardRightEdge]

And it's easy to figure that if these 2 guys underperformed, other players also underperformed.

If that were the case, we'd be able to cite who they are, where they went, and what they did.

 

[Dblbogey]

Considering the numerous holes he had to fill coming into the off season, I think Gute’s done a respectable job. Can’t fill every hole. My only beef is that I would have liked it if a veteran WR had been added. Maybe he ran out of cap space, but there’s only one proven wide out on the team, Adams. There’s a lot riding on last year’s class making a big year two jump.

Looking at film from last year it is obvious that Allison and MVS have NFL starting caliber ability. Whether the rookies make a 2nd year jump, or regress, or get hurt, who knows. But, I like our talent at that position.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ted did not get it done towards the end of his career and he is responsible. But you keep stating that his drafts sucked and the team had a low level talent. I'm challenging you to think. To me it is obvious that there was a much bigger coaching problem and I have been calling for change since 2011.

The Packers lacked talent over the last few years of Thompson's tenure because he didn't draft well anymore and was reluctant to fill obvious holes through free agency. While the coaching might deserve part of the blame there's no doubt TT was responsible as well.

But you just proved my line of thinking. Your only evidence is the Packers record as proving a lack of talent. And yes, 2 All Pros in the backfield can have a big effect on a defense. And it's easy to figure that if these 2 guys underperformed, other players also underperformed.

Hayward and Hyde being the only player who left the Packers performing at a very high level serves as evidence that the team didn't have a lot of talented players that were not playing up to potential because of Capers. In addition both of them were pretty good while in Green Bay as well.

 

[AmishMafia]

If that were the case, we'd be able to cite who they are, where they went, and what they did.

No, not really. Say all players are on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 is Reggie White and 5 is a marginal roster player. Hyde and Hayward are 8s who played as 6.5s for the Packers. There could have been 6.5s who played as 5s and did not get another chance.

If you and Capt think the Capers was a good coach and developed players during his career have at it. If Capt thinks 2 players magically becoming talented under a new coach fine. And that 2 Probowlers would not help our defense, great.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No, not really. Say all players are on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 is Reggie White and 5 is a marginal roster player. Hyde and Hayward are 8s who played as 6.5s for the Packers. There could have been 6.5s who played as 5s and did not get another chance.

If they didn't get another chance they weren't any good to begin with.

If you and Capt think the Capers was a good coach and developed players during his career have at it. If Capt thinks 2 players magically becoming talented under a new coach fine. And that 2 Probowlers would not help our defense, great.

Hayward and Hyde performed at a high level while with the Packers. Thompson wrongfully thought it would be smart to let them walk and rely on Randall, Rollins and other players that weren't as good though.

 

[Mondio]

revisionist history. They turned out to be bad moves, mostly because injuries, but hey let's just move past it. Hayward was good and injured here mostly. He's been mostly good and uninured elswhere and is not longer in years 1,2,3 in the league. He should be better. Nobody thought it was a bad move when he was not retained. The very good play from 2 rookies and shields left him expendable. Then they were all injured and one with all the talent in the world had an all world attitude that shown thru and we showed him the door. It happens. and had Hyde been up for a contract this year or even last year, I think they retain him and obviously let HaHa Walk. But at the time HaHa was coming off a probowl and was a young ascending player. and Burnett was an entrenched starter. Hindsight is great, but not many people are paying 6 million+ a year for your 3rd safety.

Let's quit ignoring what really happened to try and make a point seem stronger.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

revisionist history. They turned out to be bad moves, mostly because injuries, but hey let's just move past it. Hayward was good and injured here mostly. He's been mostly good and uninured elswhere and is not longer in years 1,2,3 in the league. He should be better. Nobody thought it was a bad move when he was not retained. The very good play from 2 rookies and shields left him expendable. Then they were all injured and one with all the talent in the world had an all world attitude that shown thru and we showed him the door. It happens. and had Hyde been up for a contract this year or even last year, I think they retain him and obviously let HaHa Walk. But at the time HaHa was coming off a probowl and was a young ascending player. and Burnett was an entrenched starter. Hindsight is great, but not many people are paying 6 million+ a year for your 3rd safety.

Let's quit ignoring what really happened to try and make a point seem stronger.

As I've mentioned repeatedly in the past at the time Thompson had to make the decision letting both Hayward and Hyde walk away seemed to be correct moves. Unfortunately using hindsight they weren't though.

 

[AmishMafia]

If they didn't get another chance they weren't any good to begin with.

Hayward and Hyde performed at a high level while with the Packers. Thompson wrongfully thought it would be smart to let them walk and rely on Randall, Rollins and other players that weren't as good though.

good frickin grief. Really?

And randall played much better in Cleveland than in GB.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

good frickin grief. Really?

And randall played much better in Cleveland than in GB.

You don't agree that using hindsight it was a mistake to let Hayward and Hyde walk away in free agency???

It's true Randall played better in Cleveland but he was far from being elite with the Browns.

 

[HardRightEdge]

No, not really. Say all players are on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 is Reggie White and 5 is a marginal roster player. Hyde and Hayward are 8s who played as 6.5s for the Packers. There could have been 6.5s who played as 5s and did not get another chance.

If you and Capt think the Capers was a good coach and developed players during his career have at it. If Capt thinks 2 players magically becoming talented under a new coach fine. And that 2 Probowlers would not help our defense, great.

Huh?

Are we to believe that 6.5's who played as 5's (or even 5's that played as less) never got another chance with any of the other 31 NFL teams? C'mon. Are we to assume that if the Packers cut Josh Jones tomorrow that all 31 teams would conclude that Capers and then Pettine "ruined" him with no one signing him to a 90 man roster and playing him through the preseason to see if he's worth giving a job?

For a couple of defensive comparables, consider day 2 defensive players in Worthy in 2012 and Thornton in 2014. Go down the draft boards to guys like Beigle or, better yet, Ringo and Bradford who have been bouncing from one practice squad to the next. These guys have gotten second, third, fourth chances to make their bones.

I challenge you to find a drafted defensive player who was cut and didn't get multiple subsequent chances. I don't think you can find one. Then I challenge you to find, among all the ones who got subsequent chances, one who amounted to anything. You need a microscope to find one of those second, third, fourth, fifth chance players who amounted to anything. You need that scope to find Lawrence Guy, who bounced to 3 other teams over 6 years before finding his niche in New England playing a Dean Lowry-type role, 50% snap counts as primarily a rotational run defender earning a 90 PFF grade last season. Even so, I imagine many posters here don't know who he is or where he came from, if that even matters.

So what we have here are guys who left in free agency by Thompson decision, who went on to nice contracts and something betweeen solid play and stardom. We might as well add Tramon Williams in Cleveland to Hayward and Hyde. Randall may be turn out to be another similar case in the middle ground between free agency and a cut, traded for somebody else's QB bust. He'd be in the middle ground as well in the respect that Thompson drafted him while Gutekunst traded him.

That brings us to a common problem-solving falacy, in football or in life, in assuming that there must be one cause of an examined problem. Why do you assume an either/or, Thompson or Capers? In my view, they were both contributors to the chronic defensive problems. The defensive picks represent in the aggregate substandard talent given the draft capital expended. Defensive discipline and accountability was lacking whether you consider 2011 or 2014 as your prime case. And, in the final analysis, if you prefer to focus on Capers' shortcomings as the key problem, it is worth considering Thompson had the wherewithal to replace him.

To Murphy's credit, even though well late to the game, he saw the dual cause to this problem, replacing both culprits going into 2018, preferring to not test first one theory of the cause before testing the other.