OT...basketball

[PikeBadger]

Take heart. The best us old geezers can hope for is that our children’s and grandchildren’s generations will enjoy all the freedoms and liberties we did prior to the pandemic. It’s very difficult to put the freedom and liberties genie back in the bottle once it’s out.

 

[RRyder]

It used to be two steps. First step as you pick up the dribble and establish the pivot foot, second step off the other foot and shoot before the pivot goes back down to the floor. It's still called that way after a player picks up the dribble or posts up--pick up the pivot foot and then put it down and you'll get the travel call. On the drive it's frequently three steps and uncalled.

Since Jordan retired the only time I've gone out of my way to watch NBA basketball was the Curry/Durrant/Thompson Warriors, something that actually had some team play. I miss the days of the Magic Lakers and Bird Celtics moving the ball.

The LaBron-at-point in Cleveland and the like is just boring basketball. Drive and shoot or drive and kick-out for the three, over and over again. Yawn.

Your confusing the gather step with one of the two steps allowed. Its why so many people that dont understand the rules when watching a guy like Giannis and think he's traveling when its not

 

[gopkrs]

Your confusing the gather step with one of the two steps allowed. Its why so many people that dont understand the rules when watching a guy like Giannis and think he's traveling when its not

It is really that it just is so much different from what it was before. They could just change the rule again to 4 steps, I could complain, and you could tell me I don't understand the rules. I think it was more difficult before. But the owners and I guess the fans wanted dunks. The 3 pointer has at least brought back the jump shot...sort of. Like I said before; I like to watch the playoffs.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Your confusing the gather step with one of the two steps allowed. Its why so many people that dont understand the rules when watching a guy like Giannis and think he's traveling when its not

I frankly don't know what the rules say these days but back in the day the first step is where a foot hits the floor just before stopping the dribble, the right foot for a right handed shot on a drive. I imagine you're calling that the "gather step". The next step establishes the pivot foot, the left foot in that example. That's all the steps you get, or should I say "got". Now, you can jump off the pivot foot (of course you'd want to on a drive) and it won't be traveling if the shot is made before the right foot hits the ground.

I suppose some folks want to call the jump off the pivot a 1/2 step. Sounds like a misnomer to me that only confuses the issue.

Now, sometimes it looks like there is no gather step because the dribble stops a split second after that first foot hits the floor instead of before, it looks like 3 steps, or 3 1/2 if you will. It looks like that because sometimes that's what it is, travelling, and it often goes uncalled. Sometimes it looks like travelling and isn't if the player jumps off the "wrong" foot.

I've probably watched a grand total of a 1/2 of a quarter of Antetokounmpo's play, just checking in to see what all the hubbub was about. It was kind of boring; he didn't see the ball much in those 6 or so minutes so I can't comment on what he does or doesn't do.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It is really that it just is so much different from what it was before. They could just change the rule again to 4 steps, I could complain, and you could tell me I don't understand the rules. I think it was more difficult before. But the owners and I guess the fans wanted dunks. The 3 pointer has at least brought back the jump shot...sort of. Like I said before; I like to watch the playoffs.

Offense used to be harder because guys could grab and hold BUT defense was easier too, cause you could grab and hold. Owners and fans got tired of Heat-Knicks game ending at 76-83, it was a boring hack fest.

Playoffs are closer to way the NBA used to play, refs let more physical play go.

 

[Shaggy]

Even though the Suns(my favorite team) went 8-0 and still didn't make it into the playoffs, it's been fun watching all the games, even if they are in a bubble.

 

[gopkrs]

Offense used to be harder because guys could grab and hold BUT defense was easier too, cause you could grab and hold. Owners and fans got tired of Heat-Knicks game ending at 76-83, it was a boring hack fest.

Playoffs are closer to way the NBA used to play, refs let more physical play go.

Offense was harder (back when) because you could not run with the ball or palm the ball. imho And you could not shove a person off his spot just because you are bigger. Is how many points you can score reflective of a good game? I guess we can start changing football rules even more to score more points. I disagree that there was more holding and grabbing in basketball. That has always been illegal.

 

[RRyder]

I frankly don't know what the rules say these days but back in the day the first step is where a foot hits the floor just before stopping the dribble, the right foot for a right handed shot on a drive. I imagine you're calling that the "gather step". The next step establishes the pivot foot, the left foot in that example. That's all the steps you get, or should I say "got". Now, you can jump off the pivot foot (of course you'd want to on a drive) and it won't be traveling if the shot is made before the right foot hits the ground.

I suppose some folks want to call the jump off the pivot a 1/2 step. Sounds like a misnomer to me that only confuses the issue.

Now, sometimes it looks like there is no gather step because the dribble stops a split second after that first foot hits the floor instead of before, it looks like 3 steps, or 3 1/2 if you will. It looks like that because sometimes that's what it is, travelling, and it often goes uncalled. Sometimes it looks like travelling and isn't if the player jumps off the "wrong" foot.

I've probably watched a grand total of a 1/2 of a quarter of Antetokounmpo's play, just checking in to see what all the hubbub was about. It was kind of boring; he didn't see the ball much in those 6 or so minutes so I can't comment on what he does or doesn't do.

Honestly that's never really been the rule. The gather step is effectively the last step before the player stops dribbling and gathers the ball for his drive. So once the last dribble hits the ground but before its been secured for the drive a step is allowed to be taken outside of the "two steps". That's why it looks like 3 steps

The rule has been more clearly defined in recent years but its always been enforced roughly the same way only it seems more egregious now a days with longer players taking longer strides from the perimeter.

But lol was this game you watched 3 years ago? Giannis fills up a stat sheet on offense and defense quicker then anyone else in the league

 

[RRyder]

Offense was harder (back when) because you could not run with the ball or palm the ball. imho And you could not shove a person off his spot just because you are bigger. Is how many points you can score reflective of a good game? I guess we can start changing football rules even more to score more points. I disagree that there was more holding and grabbing in basketball. That has always been illegal.

Removal of hand checking and the wide spread use of analytics is the reason for the increased scoring. (not even by that much or at all when you look at pre 90s scores)

Also they palmed the ball all the freaking time in years back. They didn't start cracking down on it till people complained about AI doing it

 

[gopkrs]

Removal of hand checking and the wide spread use of analytics is the reason for the increased scoring. (not even by that much or at all when you look at pre 90s scores)

Also they palmed the ball all the freaking time in years back. They didn't start cracking down on it till people complained about AI doing it

Beg to differ. Palming was not allowed. Magic palmed the ball like crazy. At first they called it and then they let it go. Analytics?? But you are right about the scores probably. Just the game changed for the spectacular dunk. When I was a kid it was 1 1/2 steps. So I understand the 1/2 step. It was always a bit subjective.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Offense was harder (back when) because you could not run with the ball or palm the ball. imho And you could not shove a person off his spot just because you are bigger. Is how many points you can score reflective of a good game? I guess we can start changing football rules even more to score more points. I disagree that there was more holding and grabbing in basketball. That has always been illegal.

Low scoring game are boring. It's why they invented the shot clock. They changed the rules to reduce physicality on defense, that's a fact, not sure if "I don't believe it" is a valid point. Even older players talk about how much today's generation couldn't "cut it" back in their day cause they'd get hit too much.

Offense is also harder now because of the elimination of illegal defense. One of the reasons dominant centers aren't as prevalent today is because it's MUCH harder to pass the ball into the post since guys can basically play zoneNzone against the post pass. That doesn't mean that Shaq or The Admiral wouldn't be great players today, they just wouldn't be AS dominant.

I'm not saying the elimination of illegal defense is a bigger deal than hand checking, just that there are differences to both sides. One era wasn't "harder" than another, they just had different rules and players in every era need to learn how to excel in the current version of the game.

 

[RRyder]

Beg to differ. Palming was not allowed. Magic palmed the ball like crazy. At first they called it and then they let it go. Analytics?? But you are right about the scores probably. Just the game changed for the spectacular dunk. When I was a kid it was 1 1/2 steps. So I understand the 1/2 step. It was always a bit subjective.

Games changed more for the routine 3 pointer. Dunks have always been highlighted in the league but teams are jacking up 3s at a huge rate in today's game

Not sure what the question you have is about analytics. Easiest example would be just how inefficient the mid range shot is. You have to shoot 50% from two point range to match what you would score shooting 33% from 3. So even a simply passable 3 point shooter is going to score more efficiently then a guy who does the bulk of his scoring from mid range even if he's an elite mid range shooter

Hence why you see teams scoring more because they've gone away from taking less efficient shots (most scoring by the better offensive teams is largely done in the paint or from 3)

Really the games changed most in the shunning of the midrange shot. (although it comes in handy in crunch time as its by far the easiest shot to get and one that is generally encouraged by most defenses)

 

[gopkrs]

Hence why you see teams scoring more because they've gone away from taking less efficient shots (most scoring by the better offensive teams is largely done in the paint or from 3)

The mid range jumper was more efficient (I thought you said scoring was basically the same) when there was no 3 point shot, you could only take a step and 1/2, and you could not just move someone out of position (ala Shaq). The 24 second clock in the pros has been around a long time. Probably why scoring is similar. Personally, I think the dunk is way overblown as being "awesome." There is not actually a lot of skill involved in shoving a ball down a hoop. You just have to be tall and take several steps. Would rather see Elgin Baylor go in for a contested layup than see Shaq dunk. So I guess that kind of says it.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The gather step is effectively the last step before the player stops dribbling and gathers the ball for his drive.

Right. That's what I said. You're right that rule has never changed. Here's the the passage from the current rule book:

"A player who gathers the ball while progressing may (a) take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball or (b) if he has not yet dribbled, one step prior to releasing the ball to start his dribble."

It is "gathers", not "has gathered".

Where you are off is that there's no such thing as 3 steps, or 2 1/2 steps for that matter.

So once the last dribble hits the ground but before its been secured for the drive a step is allowed to be taken outside of the "two steps". That's why it looks like 3 steps.

That is incorrect. Like I said, once the dribble is picked up (after the gather step which is step 1) the next foot that hits the floor establishes the pivot foot (step 2). You get the gather step, a step off the pivot foot, then the leap off the opposite foot and the release before the pivot foot hits the floor. The idea of the pivot foot, and that you can pick it up so long as you don't put it back down before shooting or passing is as old as God and is imbeeded in that rule.

Dribble stops...pivot foot established...one more step...leap off the non-pivot foot...release before the pivot hits the floor.

It's the leap and release that looks like a 3rd. step at times or, as I said jumping off the "wrong" foot (a right hander shooting off the right foot on a drive) can look like an extra step at times. But sometimes guys do take three steps with no call. Not very often an issue on the fast break flying dunk or a straight line drive to the basket; it's when they elude sombody in a stutter step off the dribble to the basket or across the lane where they lose the gather step and get away with the three total. Some of those are pretty clear cut.

It might have been three years ago I watched a little of Antetokounmpo. I'm sure today there are 6 minute stretches where he doesn't do much. Every player has those at least from time to time no matter how good they are.

I was going to say it's a good thing the moderators are in quarantine or something' with this wildly off-topic thread. Then I saw the owner of this joint chiming in.

 

[gopkrs]

The original reason for the post was to say that basketball is fun to watch on TV even w/o people in the stands. And so I anticipate a great time watching The Pack. It was pretty silly of me to start comparing today's game with the game of 50 and 60 years ago. There are some truly great players who play in every decade. I'm looking forward to the playoffs.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The original reason for the post was to say that basketball is fun to watch on TV even w/o people in the stands. And so I anticipate a great time watching The Pack. It was pretty silly of me to start comparing today's game with the game of 50 and 60 years ago. There are some truly great players who play in every decade. I'm looking forward to the playoffs.

Watching golf on TV is great without crowds. You don't get idiots yelling stuff and players messed up in their backswings by people clicking their cameras. Baseball is OK with the piped in phony crowd noise; it's still 90% pitcher vs. hitter. Basketball not so much. From the little I've watched it has the feel of guys playing in a gym. Something about it makes them look more mortal.

Of course the rule in question has not changed over 50 or 60 years, only the application of it.

 

[RRyder]

The mid range jumper was more efficient (I thought you said scoring was basically the same) when there was no 3 point shot, you could only take a step and 1/2, and you could not just move someone out of position (ala Shaq). The 24 second clock in the pros has been around a long time. Probably why scoring is similar. Personally, I think the dunk is way overblown as being "awesome." There is not actually a lot of skill involved in shoving a ball down a hoop. You just have to be tall and take several steps. Would rather see Elgin Baylor go in for a contested layup than see Shaq dunk. So I guess that kind of says it.

The mid range shot IS less efficient. However the pace of play was extremely high back in the 80's and quite honestly defenses weren't as good as the are now. Much more physical yes but still not really good as a whole.

Scoring dropped in the 90's and early 00's mostly due to high isolation play and has come back up largely due to analytics (which includes things like faster pace, corner 3's being the holy grail for offenses and ball movement being a focus)

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The mid range shot IS less efficient. However the pace of play was extremely high back in the 80's and quite honestly defenses weren't as good as the are now. Much more physical yes but still not really good as a whole.

Scoring dropped in the 90's and early 00's mostly due to high isolation play and has come back up largely due to analytics (which includes things like faster pace, corner 3's being the holy grail for offenses and ball movement being a focus)

The elimination of hand checking and illegal defense has also increased scoring. Coaches have learned that playing faster gives defenses less time to set. Hammering the ball into the post for 20 seconds doesn't work in today's game because good teams can set up VERY good defenses in that time. Faster play means more possessions which leads to more shots. The elimination of hand checking has opened up games for wing players since grabbing is not allowed as much and, another huge factor, is that coaches finally realized that the three point shot is worth more than the two point shot.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I won't watch any NBA while they're pushing political messages and organizations.

NFL is doing the same thing.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I feel much the same way, believe it or not. I'm getting to the age where I know my years on this earth are limited, and I will go to join the other people who experienced the age we grew up in. The young people coming up will take over, and they will do things their way. They seem to want to go in a particular direction, and it's probably inevitable that the US will become fully socialist at some point, and the values that are important to me are stuffed in the trash. It's just a matter of how quickly we get there. In the meantime, I guess I have a problem keeping my mouth shut while I watch it happen.


I will probably reach that point also, hard to say, depends on how bad things get. I used to enjoy watching basketball, but I don't have the deep connection with it that I feel with football, mostly because of the Packers and where my family comes from.

Betteman has done a great job keeping politics out of the NHL. Hockey beats the hell out of football anyway.

 

[gbgary]

LUKAAAAA!!

 

[rmontro]

NFL is doing the same thing.

I don't like it, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is I think politics and sports should be kept separate. But the NBA is especially blatant about it, with Black Lives Matter being written on the court. You can't watch one play without having it in your face. I know the NFL is going to have some sort of social justice messages written in the end zones, but the ones I heard didn't sound particularly biased or objectionable, stuff like "Equality" or whatever. We'll see how it plays out.

I don't like how Roger Goodell is now praising Colin Kaepernick, who wore pig socks, t-shirts with Fidel Castro, didn't deem the flag worth standing for, and said the 4th of July was a celebration of white supremacy. To me that is not something you want to promote with your football league, but he apparently thinks otherwise.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I don't like it, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is I think politics and sports should be kept separate. But the NBA is especially blatant about it, with Black Lives Matter being written on the court. You can't watch one play without having it in your face. I know the NFL is going to have some sort of social justice messages written in the end zones, but the ones I heard didn't sound particularly biased or objectionable, stuff like "Equality" or whatever. We'll see how it plays out.

I don't like how Roger Goodell is now praising Colin Kaepernick, who wore pig socks, t-shirts with Fidel Castro, didn't deem the flag worth standing for, and said the 4th of July was a celebration of white supremacy. To me that is not something you want to promote with your football league, but he apparently thinks otherwise.

Telling ppl they can't use their platform to make a political statement is, in itself, political.

 

[rmontro]

Telling ppl they can't use their platform to make a political statement is, in itself, political.

I'm not saying they can or cannot do anything. I'm just saying I don't like it. But these athletes have a large amount of fame. I don't understand why they have to make their political statements on the job. Why can't they wait until after the game and talk all the politics they want? Let them call up First Take and tell them they want to talk about social justice issues, I'm sure they would eagerly give them all the time they want (one reason I don't watch First Take anymore).

Now in this case, Goodell is telling them to go ahead and make all the political statements they want on the job, so the green flag is out. But that isn't going to make me like the product any more. If I want to watch politics, there are plenty of channels devoted to just that.

 

[Mondio]

Like rmontro said, use your social media, use your fame, start foundation, gather people around you, build a park, a library, organize a protest, go on First Take, call up any of the political pundits, meet the press, Fox, CNN etc. Lots of places to use their fame and their "platform" to do what they wish socially. I never watched football for their activism, I don't watch movies for activism either. But I enjoy movies and avoid the award shows. I like football and avoid the other stuff. I can only take so much mixing.