OL backups to protect Rogers

[easyk83]

The most common explanation I've heard (and the one that makes the most sense to me) is that the college game no longer produces well-schooled offensive linemen. The nature of college offense doesn't put them in position to practice many of the skills that the pro game requires. So whereas other positions show up to their NFL camps needing to learn the playbook and have their techniques refined by coaches, offensive linemen often show up needing to be overhauled. This is why you see linemen from more pro-style college programs (e.g. Notre Dame, Alabama, Wisconsin) going higher in the draft and finding success at a higher rate.

True with quick passing attacks, spread offenses and of course the option with dual threat qbs forcing defenses to play vanilla you just dont need to develop the mental game like they used too.

Then again as it's become more of a passing league perhaps OLs are getting exposed more frequently as a result of down, distance, and of course Defensive Fronts being more able to Tee off knowing that a pass is coming.

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

You haven't looked at the thread title?
From the OP:

WRONG......Goggle Arron RODGERS

 

[PikeBadger]

Certainly defensive linemen deserve credit, but that’s not to the exclusion of recognizing that quality OL are hard to find.

I don’t think they’re really any harder to find than quality defensive linemen. It’s just that now with many teams playing 3-4 defense, you need lesser numbers of them. I always felt that it was too difficult to find enough quality defensive linemen to play a 4-3 defense.

I’m not even sure how the term “quality” is defined in the context of this discussion.

 

[Poppa San]

I’m not even sure how the term “quality” is defined in the context of this discussion.

Easy, if he is a Packer, he has to be a runaway All-pro and 1st ballot HOFer. If he is on another team, he has to be breathing. If he is a FA, he has to be a cheap all-pro willing to sign a prove it deal. And a draftee has to be top 15 pick otherwise he is a journeyman.

 

[gopkrs]

Spriggs is better than he's given credit for most of the time. The trouble is that he has too many lapses and meltdowns which just aren't forgivable at his natural position.

Not sure if I agree or disagree with Easy. Are you saying he is good except for... Lapses and meltdowns are what separate good ones and bad ones. You can't have lapses as an OT. That is how sacks and hits to the QB happen. A DL might have a lapse or two and most likely noone notices. But if you have them as an OT; then you just aren't good. I am kind of surprised that Spriggs even has a "natural" position. Maybe he needs somebody different to coach him up because it seems like he tries to be like Backtiari (sp) in pass blocking and I don't think it is working. Looks like we may have to find out though.

 

[Dantés]

I don’t think they’re really any harder to find than quality defensive linemen. It’s just that now with many teams playing 3-4 defense, you need lesser numbers of them. I always felt that it was too difficult to find enough quality defensive linemen to play a 4-3 defense.

I’m not even sure how the term “quality” is defined in the context of this discussion.

I disagree. On a couple of levels. For one, I don't think the prevalence of 3-4 teams make a difference. Nickel is the base defense, league wide. Essentially all teams need two edge types and two interior types to play starting snaps and then depth behind them. That's true of all teams, regardless of whether their actual "base" is 3-4 or 4-3.

And then secondly, you see more teams around the league hamstrung by offensive line woes than nearly any other position but QB. There have been several Chargers teams that were undercut by terrible OL play. The Broncos of recent history had the same problem. The Seahawks are a notable example, as were their division mates the Rams before last season, and now the Cardinals are in that same spot. The Lions have dealt with serious OL problems for years, and it's also the main weakness of a strong Vikings roster. The Bengals season was essentially sunk by their OL last year. The Bills' OL is currently an abomination. The interior OL of the Dolphins has been dreadful forever. The Giants had to spend crazy money on an average tackle this offseason because their pass pro was so bad. The Texans' offensive line is a disaster. The Colts' line got their all-world QB laid up for two years. The Panthers spent real money on Matt freaking Kalil to try and address their tackle position.

I think the contracts getting handed out demonstrate how badly teams are needing quality OL. Andrew Norwell just got 5/67.5/30 to play guard. Just three years ago, top FA guards were getting 7-8M (e.g. Orlando Franklin in 2015- 5/36.5). Now they're getting over 13M. That's an 87% increase, despite the cap only rising 24% over that same time frame. In 2014, Branden Albert-- a solid, but unspectacular left tackle-- got 9.4 per on a 5 year deals. Nate Solder just got 15.5M per-- a 65% increase over a span where the cap only increased by 33%.

I think Packer fans are a little insulated from this trend. For whatever faults he had, TT was a master at finding quality OL in the middle rounds with consistency. James Campen deserves credit too. It's the single biggest competitive advantage Green Bay has had outside of Rodgers. But it doesn't change the realty that OL play is a major issue league wide.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I was/am a springs optimist... We drafted a project, Thompson style. And when you draft a project, you can't get upset when he stinks , basically his whole rookie contract...
Look at bahk. When we signed him, there was still question if he was the real deal or not?
Bumpy start, to say it nice. Injuries. Ups, and then downs... But he was a project first, that developed into a top tier player... After 3 years.
Got to kind of give spriggs a pass those first couple years. He did have flashes imo... But injuries stopped that. So it's time to trust him I guess. Can he stay healthy and produce at a high level if needed? Is he stronger? I Havnt seen it yet. And if bahk went down for the year week one. I'd be crapping my levis. But I'm optimistic he has become a above average backup tackle.

Not willing to bet #12s blind side on it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I was/am a springs optimist... We drafted a project, Thompson style. And when you draft a project, you can't get upset when he stinks , basically his whole rookie contract...
Look at bahk. When we signed him, there was still question if he was the real deal or not?
Bumpy start, to say it nice. Injuries. Ups, and then downs... But he was a project first, that developed into a top tier player... After 3 years.
Got to kind of give spriggs a pass those first couple years. He did have flashes imo... But injuries stopped that. So it's time to trust him I guess. Can he stay healthy and produce at a high level if needed? Is he stronger? I Havnt seen it yet. And if bahk went down for the year week one. I'd be crapping my levis. But I'm optimistic he has become a above average backup tackle.

Not willing to bet #12s blind side on it.

Had Spriggs been a 4th round pick like Bahk was, I would tend to agree with you, but he wasn't. He was a guy that some had projected pretty high, even a possible late first rounder. The Packers ended up having to use 3 picks (2nd, 4th, 7th) to draft him. Given that, I would have expected him to be further along by now than he appears to be. All that said, as long as he is a Packer, I'm all about hoping he becomes a stud OT, but time is ticking and given that he will probably be the first Tackle off the bench, he needs to be ready, now!

I also think your memory of Bahk is a bit off. He was thrust into the starting role at LT his rookie season when Bulaga went down during the Family Night scrimmage. First rookie to start all 16 games for the Packers since 1978 and he has been there ever since. He may not have been a Pro Bowler that first or second year, but his play in those 2 seasons was far superior to what we have seen from Spriggs.

 

[Half Empty]

You haven't looked at the thread title?
From the OP:

Now I see it. With no other explanation, I figured you were referring to the previous post.

 

[easyk83]

Not sure if I agree or disagree with Easy. Are you saying he is good except for... Lapses and meltdowns are what separate good ones and bad ones. You can't have lapses as an OT. That is how sacks and hits to the QB happen. A DL might have a lapse or two and most likely noone notices. But if you have them as an OT; then you just aren't good. I am kind of surprised that Spriggs even has a "natural" position. Maybe he needs somebody different to coach him up because it seems like he tries to be like Backtiari (sp) in pass blocking and I don't think it is working. Looks like we may have to find out though.

This is true but at times he has looked the part while plenty of players never really do. Which begs the question are these lapses something that he can grow out of?

 

[gopkrs]

This is true but at times he has looked the part while plenty of players never really do. Which begs the question are these lapses something that he can grow out of?

Thing is...Baktiari played well from the start. Most of our O linemen that have not done well, looked bad from the start. Can you name someone that James Campen has turned from a bad player to a good one? I can see where you would like to have Sriggs turn it around...so would I. If he looks the part while battling some guy who won't play in the NFL...it does not count.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thing is...Baktiari played well from the start. Most of our O linemen that have not done well, looked bad from the start. Can you name someone that James Campen has turned from a bad player to a good one? I can see where you would like to have Sriggs turn it around...so would I. If he looks the part while battling some guy who won't play in the NFL...it does not count.

I guess if you consider what round some of the successful players under Campen were chosen in, I would consider what he has done to be a great success, which is to take talent that was believed to be average or below by most teams and made them solid starters.

Allen Barbre: 4th Rd.
Josh Sitton: 4th Rd.
TJ Lang: 4th Rd.
JC Tretter: 4th Rd.
David Bakhtiari: 4th Rd.
Corey Linsley: 5th Rd.
Lane Taylor: UDFA

Now maybe TT and the scouts had something to do with this, but it is a pretty consistent patter for Campen and not so much for TT, take a 4th rounder or later and make something pretty special out of him.

 

[Dantés]

Thing is...Baktiari played well from the start. Most of our O linemen that have not done well, looked bad from the start. Can you name someone that James Campen has turned from a bad player to a good one? I can see where you would like to have Sriggs turn it around...so would I. If he looks the part while battling some guy who won't play in the NFL...it does not count.

Bakhtiari was passable as a rookie, but certainly not great. He has steadily improved every year under Campen and is now elite-- a top 5 OT in the league. Certainly the personnel department has been very good at identifying mid to late round OL talent, but it is beyond me how anyone can deny credit to Campen given how well his lines have performed.

 

[easyk83]

I guess if you consider what round some of the successful players under Campen were chosen in, I would consider what he has done to be a great success, which is to take talent that was believed to be average or below by most teams and made them solid starters.

Allen Barbre: 4th Rd.
Josh Sitton: 4th Rd.
TJ Lang: 4th Rd.
JC Tretter: 4th Rd.
David Bakhtiari: 4th Rd.
Corey Linsley: 5th Rd.
Lane Taylor: UDFA

Now maybe TT and the scouts had something to do with this, but it is a pretty consistent patter for Campen and not so much for TT, take a 4th rounder or later and make something pretty special out of him.

I think that the best way to build an OL is to take a pick or two in each draft in the mid to late rounds and build a pipeline. Make guys fight it out every offseason and see that the toughest meanest survive.

 

[easyk83]

Thing is...Baktiari played well from the start. Most of our O linemen that have not done well, looked bad from the start. Can you name someone that James Campen has turned from a bad player to a good one? I can see where you would like to have Sriggs turn it around...so would I. If he looks the part while battling some guy who won't play in the NFL...it does not count.

I remember him looking overmatched during PS games in 08. Of course by 2009 he was markedly improved. Of course some of that could just be the awkwardness of moving from the outside to the inside. With Spriggs I'm still in wait and see posture. Obviously the Coaches like something from him given that he's still here.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think that the best way to build an OL is to take a pick or two in each draft in the mid to late rounds and build a pipeline. Make guys fight it out every offseason and see that the toughest meanest survive.

I agree and with the exception of Spriggs, TT went away from that philosophy in the back half of his time as GM. I guess there is the 200th pick used on Murphy but otherwise you have to go back to 2013 when Bahk and Tretter were taken in the 4th round to find the Packers drafting a Tackle.

Sadly, the Packers defense required so much draft capital in the last 4-5 years, the OL and WR position kind of got shoved to the side under TT's final years.