McCarthy to rely on receivers to exploit middle of the field

[HardRightEdge]

...McCarthy plans on using receivers to exploit the middle of the field.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-tight-end-problem-b99693146z1-373251561.html

That would hardly be a shock since that was the case both before and after Finley. What's needed to make that work is receivers who are above the midpoint on the fearlessness scale going over the middle. The Packers have had those guys over the years...Driver, Jennings, Nelson.

Cobb? I'd say yes, even if last season's drops don't speak to that. Was he pressing under pressure of being #1? Was that early shoulder injury lingering through the season? Possibly, on both counts. A return to the form that earned him $10 million/yr. is a fair bet.

McCarthy discusses in that link Nelson's productivity being elevated with his work out of the slot. In fact, his comment seems to suggest he thinks of him as a better slot receiver than wideout. Expect to see him in the slot again a fair amount of the time.

With the Arizona playoff game, I also would not discount Janis and Abbrederis being guys who can compensate for lack of a TE pass catching specialist.

Janis made a play in the AZ game I didn't think he could make; a short slant where he had to both go low and extend, making the catch. It made me say, "hmmm". Questions have been made as to his study habits; maybe he's one of those guys who has to learn by osmosis. In any case he needs to sharpen up his routes to get the QB's trust, though he seemed to be heading in that direction against AZ. Janis is big and strong, nearly approximating the smaller pass catching TEs. What marginal size threat he may lack running out of the slot relative to TEs (recall Finley ran about 50% of his snaps out of the slot), the additional speed threat from there against nickels, safeties and the occasional LB would compensate and present an unusual threat. Beside the route running issues, I still need to see some convincing examples of Janis adjusting to the ball, a prerequisite for running seam routes. Still and all, he's shown progress and has to be regarded as a potential contributor out of the slot in compensating for that Finley-like TE.

Abbrederis is very quick out of his inside breaks, getting separation, though he's certainly an injury concern. Still and all, he's not afraid to go inside and will continue to do so as long as he's able.

This is not New England. Belichick decided some years back he did not want to lay out the high cap numbers wide outs demand, and found a better value proposition in a TE/slot oriented offense. That's not the Packer identity. Rodgers walks on the field with a downfield-first mentality; the playbook is filled with 3-wide and 4-wide sets, regardless of who the TE might be.

Would a Finley-like TE be a nice to have? Absolutely. Is it a high priority? Given the other areas of concern, I'd say it's not.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

That would hardly be a shock since that was the case both before and after Finley. What's needed to make that work is receivers who are above the midpoint on the fearlessness scale going over the middle. The Packers have had those guys over the years...Driver, Jennings, Nelson.

Cobb? I'd say yes, even if last season's drops don't speak to that. Was he pressing under pressure of being #1? Was that early shoulder injury lingering through the season? Possibly, on both counts. A return to the form that earned him $10 million/yr. is a fair bet.

McCarthy discusses in that link Nelson's productivity being elevated with his work out of the slot. In fact, his comment seems to suggest he thinks of him as a better slot receiver than wideout. Expect to see him there again a fair amount of the time.

With the Arizona playoff game, I also would not discount Janis and Abbrederis being guys who can compensate for lack of a TE pass catching specialist.

Janis made a play in the AZ game I didn't think he could make; a short slant where he had to both go low and extend, making the catch. It made me say, "hmmm". Questions have been made as to his study habits; maybe he's one of those guys who has to learn by osmosis. In any case he needs to sharpen up his routes to get the QB's trust, though he seemed to be heading in that direction against AZ. Janis is big and strong, nearly approximating the smaller pass catching TEs. What marginal size threat he may lack running out of the slot relative to TEs (recall Finley ran about 50% of his snaps out of the slot), the additional speed threat from there against nickels, safeties and the occasional LB would compensate and present an unusual threat. Beside the route running issues, I still need to see some convincing examples of Janis adjusting to the ball, a prerequisite for running seam routes. Still and all, he's shown progress and has to be regarded as a potential contributor out of the slot in compensating for that Finley-like TE.

Abbrederis is very quick out of his inside breaks, getting separation, though he's certainly an injury concern. Still and all, he's not afraid to go inside and will continue to do so as long as he's able.

This is not New England. Belichick decided some years back he did not want to lay out the high cap numbers wide outs demand, and found a better value proposition in a TE/slot oriented offense. That's not the Packer identity. Rodgers walks on the field with a downfield-first mentality; the playbook is filled with 3-wide and 4-wide sets, regardless of who the TE might be.

Would a Finley-like TE be a nice to have? Absolutely. Is it a high priority? Given the other areas of concern, I'd say it's not.

The catches Janis was making surprised me a bit, as well. There was the slant, then the back-shoulder catch, the adjustment on the TD catch, not to mention the ones on the final drive were indicative of a WR who knew what he was doing. And just about every single one of them was some sort of clutch 3rd or 4th down play. I had begun to see their point about him after the Oakland game, but his performance in Arizona made me think he was capable of even more than I had originally suspected.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The catches Janis was making surprised me a bit, as well. There was the slant, then the back-shoulder catch, the adjustment on the TD catch, not to mention the ones on the final drive were indicative of a WR who knew what he was doing. And just about every single one of them was some sort of clutch 3rd or 4th down play. I had begun to see their point about him after the Oakland game, but his performance in Arizona made me think he was capable of even more than I had originally suspected.

Yes, there is recognizable progress. On the other hand, there was the red zone stick/corner (I guess) pattern where he took one angle and Rodgers threw to another, showing visible disgust.

On a related matter, Rodgers needs to cut down on that disgust stuff. I get that when a TD opportunity goes by the boards a reflexive expression might not be avoided. But when you see that look while staring at the receiver 3, 4, 5 times per game, it's a bit much and can't be good for chemistry.

He should take it to the sidelines and make it an instructable moment.

Sorry...I've been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That would hardly be a shock since that was the case both before and after Finley. What's needed to make that work is receivers who are above the midpoint on the fearlessness scale going over the middle. The Packers have had those guys over the years...Driver, Jennings, Nelson.

Cobb? I'd say yes, even if last season's drops don't speak to that. Was he pressing under pressure of being #1? Was that early shoulder injury lingering through the season? Possibly, on both counts. A return to the form that earned him $10 million/yr. is a fair bet.

McCarthy discusses in that link Nelson's productivity being elevated with his work out of the slot. In fact, his comment seems to suggest he thinks of him as a better slot receiver than wideout. Expect to see him in the slot again a fair amount of the time.

With the Arizona playoff game, I also would not discount Janis and Abbrederis being guys who can compensate for lack of a TE pass catching specialist.

Janis made a play in the AZ game I didn't think he could make; a short slant where he had to both go low and extend, making the catch. It made me say, "hmmm". Questions have been made as to his study habits; maybe he's one of those guys who has to learn by osmosis. In any case he needs to sharpen up his routes to get the QB's trust, though he seemed to be heading in that direction against AZ. Janis is big and strong, nearly approximating the smaller pass catching TEs. What marginal size threat he may lack running out of the slot relative to TEs (recall Finley ran about 50% of his snaps out of the slot), the additional speed threat from there against nickels, safeties and the occasional LB would compensate and present an unusual threat. Beside the route running issues, I still need to see some convincing examples of Janis adjusting to the ball, a prerequisite for running seam routes. Still and all, he's shown progress and has to be regarded as a potential contributor out of the slot in compensating for that Finley-like TE.

Abbrederis is very quick out of his inside breaks, getting separation, though he's certainly an injury concern. Still and all, he's not afraid to go inside and will continue to do so as long as he's able.

This is not New England. Belichick decided some years back he did not want to lay out the high cap numbers wide outs demand, and found a better value proposition in a TE/slot oriented offense. That's not the Packer identity. Rodgers walks on the field with a downfield-first mentality; the playbook is filled with 3-wide and 4-wide sets, regardless of who the TE might be.

Would a Finley-like TE be a nice to have? Absolutely. Is it a high priority? Given the other areas of concern, I'd say it's not.

Hopefully McCarthy will adjust the offense to actually help the receivers get open if he's going to rely on them so much in the middle. The offense works well when an older-style "just beat your man" concept has players that can consistently beat their guys, however, when the receivers can't do that, there are no schemes in place to help them (ala the Pats).

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/02/...kers-offense-problems-broncos-loss-nfl-week-8

The above link is an article following the Broncos game last year and notes the Packer's WRs having problems beating man-coverage and notes that the Packers only used "man-beater" route concepts briefly in the game.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/11/10/all-22-aaron-rodgers-packers-mike-McCarthy

This article was written a week later (different writer) and also notes:

• a limited palette of routes that leaves Rodgers with very few options
• Green Bay’s slow offensive start in 2014 was predicated on an overall lack of formation diversity and an assemblage of route concepts that left Rodgers without easy openings and short-to-intermediate coverage-beaters
• Through Week 9 of the 2015 season, the Packers are running “11” personnel packages on 75% of their snaps. The league average is 55%.
• The above bullet is probably more on Thompson than MM; coaches probably don't feel like TEs are worth having on the field as much

I think part of the problem with last year's offense is, as you say, that the Packers "aren't New England"...I can't figure out why one of the more successful passing games in the league featuring a QB with limited arm strength and no notable WRs is one the Packers should avoid using pieces of.

 

[PackerDNA]

I'd also like it if Rodgers laid off Twitter; the UFO stuff is all over the web.
What's the over under on how many millions of times we hear that thrown in his face next season, like every time he misses a throw. The crap will write itself.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think part of the problem with last year's offense is, as you say, that the Packers "aren't New England"...I can't figure out why one of the more successful passing games in the league featuring a QB with limited arm strength and no notable WRs is one the Packers should avoid using pieces of.

First off, Brady's arm strength is not "limited" in the way we might have called limited the 2015 version of Peyton Manning or any number of marginal QBs. Brady "cannon"? No. But he can put some mustard on the ball, with accuracy. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not immune to frustration over the Packer's more-or-less abandonment of West Coast principals: short timing routes when the defenses are giving them away. Further, watching Rodgers give up open 10 yard throws that would move the chains in his frequent exits from the pocket, lo these many years, in favor of the downfield throw can also be frustrating when that deep ball hits the ground, while forgetting the impact when it doesn't.

If the occasional Rodgers/McCarthy dust-ups are related to this question, so far Rodgers wins.

And if McCarthy concedes, if there is actually an issue in this regard, that's a recognition of the QBs identity and consequently the identity of this offense. You're not going to change that, and if you tried to it could be quite disruptive. Relax, and let Rodgers be Rodgers.

As for last season, it was abundantly obvious to everyone that the receivers were not getting separation often enough. Losing Nelson as an opponent focus had a lot of impact beyond just the lost productivity. Was Cobb's early shoulder injury bothering him throughout the year? Perhaps. Adams had ankle/foot issues throughout the year, from leaving the Seattle game with an ankle injury in September to sitting out practice with a foot injury in December...he may have been playing through issues the entire season. Jones, while a welcome addition given the issues, showed a pronounced drop off in speed and was down to savvy, not ideal in the separation equation.

I'd also point out that the pass blocking was not up to par. Rodgers being forced to bail under the 2.5 second bell was a lot more frequent than what one would call acceptable. Looking for the exit route and the first couple steps getting out takes some 10ths. of second where his eyes are not downfield. Separation windows may be there...and then they aren't by the time he gets back to looking downfield.

There were enough mitigating factors to suggest that some notable change in approach is not in order, particularly given it goes counter to an ingrained identity.

The one thing I do question is whether the Packer route combos have become somewhat predictable. One season of performance issues is not likely to force significant passing scheme changes after many years of high productivity. If all hands are on deck and healthy, and the problems persist, then and only then will a rush to the drawing board...or digging into the back pages of the play book...be in order.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'd also like it if Rodgers laid off Twitter; the UFO stuff is all over the web.
What's the over under on how many millions of times we hear that thrown in his face next season, like every time he misses a throw. The crap will write itself.

I don't do twitter, and I'm not going to start.

 

[PackerDNA]

I don't do twitter, and I'm not going to start.

Ditto.
Or Facebook.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Ditto.
Or Facebook.

Ditto. Or any social media I've seen. It dulls the mind. And who want's to be looking at everybody's worst or fictional self? I guess a couple billion people would disagree, though I hardly find that a convincing reason to think otherwise.

 

[Sky King]

Ditto.
Or Facebook.

Yeah, but then there are avatars.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'd also like it if Rodgers laid off Twitter; the UFO stuff is all over the web.
What's the over under on how many millions of times we hear that thrown in his face next season, like every time he misses a throw. The crap will write itself.

Rodgers actually didn´t post the story on Twitter but told it during an interview with comedian Pete Holmes. You can listen to the masterpiece here:

http://nerdist.com/you-made-it-weird-310-aaron-rodgers/

 

[HardRightEdge]

Rodgers actually didn´t post the story on Twitter but told it during an interview with comedian Pete Holmes. You can listen to the masterpiece here:

http://nerdist.com/you-made-it-weird-310-aaron-rodgers/

There could be silver lining. This is, after all, the time of the year for optimism.

At this point the chip on his shoulder over his draft position has been whittled down to a sliver. Given last year's performance and this bizarre revelation, punditland prattling on about how he might be losing it could provide a fresh chip.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I'd also like it if Rodgers laid off Twitter; the UFO stuff is all over the web.
What's the over under on how many millions of times we hear that thrown in his face next season, like every time he misses a throw. The crap will write itself.

UFOs are real...

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Between jordy/ cobb. Then montgomery/ adams dynamic tallented young combo for #3 and #4 wrs... Topped off with two up and coming guys like janis and abby, who were almost able to help us beat a dominating arizona defense....

These guys all need to get on the field. Especially the top 4. Those guys are going to break secondaries. Break their whole defense!!! You cant stop them. Adams against dime backs??? Lol. Montster? I mean thats goung to be very hard to cover all 4 of those guys at once...

 

[Pkrjones]

We'll all be arguing over the depth chart into September, but IMHO I'd love to see Jordy/Monty on one side, Janis/Cobb on the other. Would love a raw, potential-laden 5th or 6th round WR to stash on PS with Adams/Abby fighting for spot #5.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I have been a James Jones since his rookie season. I always hoped that he'd put it all together, making the easy catches as flawlessly as he could the difficult ones. In 2015, it seemed that the rest of the WRs took on his running style which I would describe as "lazy" last year. My hope is that the rest of the WRs will once again look up at Jordy's style and push themselves once again.

That said, I loathe players that need external motivation to succeed.

He didn't external motivation, he needed to wear a sleeveless hooded sweatshirt to run routes hard!

 

[Packerlifer]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/03/23/packers-look-reset-pass-attack-2016/82163068/


http://www.drafttek.com/2016-NFL-Draft-Prospect-Rankings/Top-College-WRs-2016-Draft.asp

 

[rodell330]

Or they could just find a Tightend already ....seriously. Smh

 

[Sunshinepacker]

First off, Brady's arm strength is not "limited" in the way we might have called limited the 2015 version of Peyton Manning or any number of marginal QBs. Brady "cannon"? No. But he can put some mustard on the ball, with accuracy. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not immune to frustration over the Packer's more-or-less abandonment of West Coast principals: short timing routes when the defenses are giving them away. Further, watching Rodgers give up open 10 yard throws that would move the chains in his frequent exits from the pocket, lo these many years, in favor of the downfield throw can also be frustrating when that deep ball hits the ground, while forgetting the impact when it doesn't.

If the occasional Rodgers/McCarthy dust-ups are related to this question, so far Rodgers wins.

And if McCarthy concedes, if there is actually an issue in this regard, that's a recognition of the QBs identity and consequently the identity of this offense. You're not going to change that, and if you tried to it could be quite disruptive. Relax, and let Rodgers be Rodgers.

As for last season, it was abundantly obvious to everyone that the receivers were not getting separation often enough. Losing Nelson as an opponent focus had a lot of impact beyond just the lost productivity. Was Cobb's early shoulder injury bothering him throughout the year? Perhaps. Adams had ankle/foot issues throughout the year, from leaving the Seattle game with an ankle injury in September to sitting out practice with a foot injury in December...he may have been playing through issues the entire season. Jones, while a welcome addition given the issues, showed a pronounced drop off in speed and was down to savvy, not ideal in the separation equation.

I'd also point out that the pass blocking was not up to par. Rodgers being forced to bail under the 2.5 second bell was a lot more frequent than what one would call acceptable. Looking for the exit route and the first couple steps getting out takes some 10ths. of second where his eyes are not downfield. Separation windows may be there...and then they aren't by the time he gets back to looking downfield.

There were enough mitigating factors to suggest that some notable change in approach is not in order, particularly given it goes counter to an ingrained identity.

The one thing I do question is whether the Packer route combos have become somewhat predictable. One season of performance issues is not likely to force significant passing scheme changes after many years of high productivity. If all hands are on deck and healthy, and the problems persist, then and only then will a rush to the drawing board...or digging into the back pages of the play book...be in order.

I never said Brady's arm was as bas as Manning's, I said Brady's arm strength is limited. That's a fact, luckily the team has designed a passing game around those limits and put personnel around him that mitigates his inability to throw the deep ball (having Gronk is pretty great too). When was the last time you saw Brady throw a deep ball that looked like it had any velocity? Manning's arm isn't "limited", it's not NFL-worthy, hence the reason that Manning was one of the worst QBs in the NFL last season.

Any NFL team should be continually trying to improve their offense; not sure why the Packers wouldn't want to explore the possibility of adding some more modern route concepts to the passing game.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I never said Brady's arm was as bas as Manning's, I said Brady's arm strength is limited. That's a fact, luckily the team has designed a passing game around those limits and put personnel around him that mitigates his inability to throw the deep ball (having Gronk is pretty great too). When was the last time you saw Brady throw a deep ball that looked like it had any velocity? Manning's arm isn't "limited", it's not NFL-worthy, hence the reason that Manning was one of the worst QBs in the NFL last season.

If you want to divide QB arms into either "strong" or "limited", I suppose Brady would qualify as "limited". I wouldn't look at it that way. There's a middle ground where a guy like Brady resides. We could talk about what "velocity on deep balls" actually buys you, but that's another topic.

With respect to Manning, you drew a straight line from "limited arm" (which was clearly the case however you measure it) to "one of the worst QBs in the NFL last season". Surely his passer rating was terrible in the regular season and little better in the playoffs. "Worst passer"? Perhaps. "Worst QB"? That's something different that goes to intangibles such as experience and leadership. But that's another topic as well.