Linebacker questions

[RicFlairoftheNFL]

Alright gang,

It's 3 a.m. (I must be lonelaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayhaaaaaaaaaaay) and this one is keeping me up.

I will assume until I'm told otherwise by the NFL that we're having football this year...against the beliefs of a couple people in other threads.

Now if I'm right in my assumption the linebacker room inside looks like.

Kirksey (Who has had injury issues)
Burks (Who can't stay healthy)
Summers (Who has the head but tackling looks like Bosworth against Bo Jackson at times)
Bolton (Coming off a knee)
Martin (Same and as a rookie)

Another assumption here...we run base 3-4 at all...even one play this whole year...who are the 2 starters inside?

Also if it's Kirksey and Summers (Martinez's primary backup last year) who wears the helmet?

I think Summers can learn to tackle and be a dominant linebacker. The rest of the room is gonna give me an aneurysm!

 

[TornSolace]

Alright gang,

It's 3 a.m. (I must be lonelaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayhaaaaaaaaaaay) and this one is keeping me up.

I will assume until I'm told otherwise by the NFL that we're having football this year...against the beliefs of a couple people in other threads.

Now if I'm right in my assumption the linebacker room inside looks like.

Kirksey (Who has had injury issues)
Burks (Who can't stay healthy)
Summers (Who has the head but tackling looks like Bosworth against Bo Jackson at times)
Bolton (Coming off a knee)
Martin (Same and as a rookie)

Another assumption here...we run base 3-4 at all...even one play this whole year...who are the 2 starters inside?

Also if it's Kirksey and Summers (Martinez's primary backup last year) who wears the helmet?

I think Summers can learn to tackle and be a dominant linebacker. The rest of the room is gonna give me an aneurysm!

Give up on logic just know that we will give up 250 yards per game on the ground

 

[PackinMSP]

I believe it's safe to say that the Packers FO does not really value ILBers .

Patrick Queen would have been perfect and fixes alot of our problems.

 

[Mondio]

I'm not sure Queen was the answer. Sure he looks good, but he can't take on blockers either. He's fast and with the guys he had up front, avoided them usually. Well, now he's in the NFL where offensive lineman are going to get there that much faster. how's he going to do? He likely is a pretty good player, but at the same time he was an NFL caliber player on an defense loaded with NFL caliber players in front and behind him. So while he looks great to us, i just get the feeling he's not going to look as great at the next level. He's going to find the free runs to a ball carrier to be less than he did in college. I think we already have guys that can run freely and quickly to a ball carrier.

 

[PackinMSP]

I'm not sure Queen was the answer. Sure he looks good, but he can't take on blockers either. He's fast and with the guys he had up front, avoided them usually. Well, now he's in the NFL where offensive lineman are going to get there that much faster. how's he going to do? He likely is a pretty good player, but at the same time he was an NFL caliber player on an defense loaded with NFL caliber players in front and behind him. So while he looks great to us, i just get the feeling he's not going to look as great at the next level. He's going to find the free runs to a ball carrier to be less than he did in college. I think we already have guys that can run freely and quickly to a ball carrier.

But not as fast as him or with his coverage ability

Idk man, we really haven't had a guy who is real fast at ILB or can cover in a while

 

[Mondio]

we also haven't ahd one that can work off a block and still get the ball carrier in a while either. Well, Goodson actually could, better than Martinez by quite a bit in that regard. But he couldn't cover and he wasn't exactly great either. We can put a safety in there to cover guys. Does it help? and by how much? Does it help more than a legitimate running/play action game?

 

[CanadaCheese]

We do not have one starting caliber linebacker currently on the roster
We did nothing (despite opportunities) to address it.
Trades and roster cuts are the only option now.

 

[Dantés]

The Packers are taking a risk at linebacker this season.

Kirksey is an upgrade, but he hasn't been healthy for two seasons-- a chest injury cut short 2018, and a hamstring 2019. He's 27 and they apparently like his chances to stay healthy.

That's the risk. The reward is that they upgraded at the position without having to make a big cap investment. Kirksey has been a better player than Martinez over his career.

We will see how the gamble pays off (or doesn't).

As to who will play next to him in base defense, I'm sure there will be a competition. Summers and Martin will doubtlessly be involved, and potentially another roster addition. Last year, they added Goodson for that role simply by swapping 7th rounders with the Giants. He was fine as a base defense linebacker.

People need to realize that the Packers run base 3-4 less than 25% of the time, and that run stopping LB role is not difficult to find.

The real concern at the position is Kirksey's health and what you do with the every down role if he goes down.

 

[CanadaCheese]

I resubmit.... they have zero NFL caliber LBs on the roster you can confidently pencil in
It more than a risk....it’s a fatal flaw that isn’t easily covered up. As last year (and even now more so) they are incredibly susceptible to teams running it down their throat’s, wearing out our thin defensive line , and dictating pace and direction of game.
So we draft a QB and Fullback
Made sense especially when highly rated college prospects could have be selected and at least attempted to address the GLARING need

And yes, sideline to sideline thumper ILBs grow on trees.... let’s go pick a bunch!!!

 

[gopkrs]

I don't have confidence in Summers. He missed every one on one tackle in the flat in preseason. Hope Burks can show something. I think Bolton has a chance. Can't say about Kirksey. I like the write ups on him and he looks like the only for sure starter.

 

[PackinMSP]

I hear the Thomas Davis comparisons to Patrick Queen...but honestly I can see him being a Patrick Willis type ...

He just needs to get stronger..but that was similar to what Willis had coming out of college too..

they're the same height, speed, i see the athleticism

I REALLY hope he doesn't become the next Willis because that would be such a sour taste

 

[CanadaCheese]

I don't have confidence in Summers. He missed every one on one tackle in the flat in preseason. Hope Burks can show something. I think Bolton has a chance. Can't say about Kirksey. I like the write ups on him and he looks like the only for sure starter.

I’ll buy the idea that Kirksey might be able to start but his reliability is a huge red flag..... and then we have ZERO to fill three positions not to speak of depth..... hope is apparently the strategy on multiple fronts in this organization

 

[TomBrownFan40]

This is one of the toughest finds for an NFL scout in today's game. NFL caliber 3-4 ILBs are rare; 4-3 MLBs are even rarer. In this draft, there was basically ONE. The falloff after Kenneth Murray was huge.

College defensive coordinators today are interested in LBs that can spy read option QBs and run down 5'8" burner scat backs. That's why most college LBs have skill sets more akin to NFL safeties. That does not cut it in the NFL. In this league, you have 300+ pound guards who can run 5.0 40s and flatten a 220 lb. linebacker/safety on the second level. There are not many Brian Urlachers out there anymore. That's why programs like the 49ers and Titans (Matt LaFleur's training ground) have adopted north/south power running offenses. It's also one of the reasons why the Packers toyed with moving Clay Matthews inside.

Personally, total speculation here but, I predict you're going to see more than a few of these EDGE guys ending up as inside linebackers. Until then, you're going to have to be patient as the position coaches and strength coaches attempt to transform some of these 225 lb "Will" backers into "Sams" and "Mikes".

 

[CanadaCheese]

This is one of the toughest finds for an NFL scout in today's game. NFL caliber 3-4 ILBs are rare; 4-3 MLBs are even rarer. In this draft, there was basically ONE. The falloff after Kenneth Murray was huge.

College defensive coordinators today are interested in LBs that can spy read option QBs and run down 5'8" burner scat backs. That's why most college LBs have skill sets more akin to NFL safeties. That does not cut it in the NFL. In this league, you have 300+ pound guards who can run 5.0 40s and flatten a 220 lb. linebacker/safety on the second level. There are not many Brian Urlachers out there anymore. That's why programs like the 49ers and Titans (Matt LaFleur's training ground) have adopted north/south power running offenses. It's also one of the reasons why the Packers toyed with moving Clay Matthews inside.

Personally, total speculation here but, I predict you're going to see more than a few of these EDGE guys ending up as inside linebackers. Until then, you're going to have to be patient as the position coaches and strength coaches attempt to transform some of these 225 lb "Will" backers into "Sams" and "Mikes".

100% correct
All the more reason to prioritize it since if you don’t have it you are totally susceptible to getting gashed over and over.
See us the last number of years
So what do we do....never mind....

 

[PackinMSP]

Absolutely.

I even recall making several posts last season about how difficult it is to find a "true ELITE' 3-4 ILB...

Kuechly/Willis/Mayo/etc don't grow on trees...and they also retire early apparently

 

[CanadaCheese]

Absolutely.

I even recall making several posts last season about how difficult it is to find a "true ELITE' 3-4 ILB...

Kuechly/Willis/Mayo/etc don't grow on trees...and they also retire early apparently

Correct on all counts but apparently some expects on this board believe they are easily found and the personal we currently have will “compete” and fill the holes...

 

[PackinMSP]

Correct on all counts but apparently some expects on this board believe they are easily found and the personal we currently have will “compete” and fill the holes...

I feel that Queen helps to fix a BIG ailment we have been having at the ILB for quite some time honestly.

We haven't had a guy who can go sideline to sideline with elite speed/range or cover for a LONG time...

But time will tell.

 

[CanadaCheese]

I feel that Queen helps to fix a BIG ailment we have been having at the ILB for quite some time honestly.

We haven't had a guy who can go sideline to sideline with elite speed/range or cover for a LONG time...

But time will tell.

Unfortunately time won’t tell since we don’t have him or anyone else

 

[RicFlairoftheNFL]

What does everybody see in Queen? Based on what I could see he benefited from having heavy-assed LSU D-Lineman in front of him that you couldn't move with dynamite in front of him. Because of this we don't know what he really is. To me he was only the 4th best ILB on the board. The thing that ****** me off is while we had NO shot at Murray, Brooks went 1 pick after us, and Wilson went about 10 picks after we drafted in the 2nd round. To me they are the #2 and #3 on the board. I can see passing on Brooks for Love, it's a 2023 move, but taking a running back in the 2nd round when we need depth availability and ability at linebacker?

 

[PackinMSP]

What does everybody see in Queen? Based on what I could see he benefited from having heavy-assed LSU D-Lineman in front of him that you couldn't move with dynamite in front of him. Because of this we don't know what he really is. To me he was only the 4th best ILB on the board. The thing that ****** me off is while we had NO shot at Murray, Brooks went 1 pick after us, and Wilson went about 10 picks after we drafted in the 2nd round. To me they are the #2 and #3 on the board. I can see passing on Brooks for Love, it's a 2023 move, but taking a running back in the 2nd round when we need depth availability and ability at linebacker?

For me for Queen,

It's really just the speed(it's elite for his position), athleticism, and ability to cover (and be smart enough to cover too)

 

[CanadaCheese]

What does everybody see in Queen? Based on what I could see he benefited from having heavy-assed LSU D-Lineman in front of him that you couldn't move with dynamite in front of him. Because of this we don't know what he really is. To me he was only the 4th best ILB on the board. The thing that ****** me off is while we had NO shot at Murray, Brooks went 1 pick after us, and Wilson went about 10 picks after we drafted in the 2nd round. To me they are the #2 and #3 on the board. I can see passing on Brooks for Love, it's a 2023 move, but taking a running back in the 2nd round when we need depth availability and ability at linebacker?

He is incredibly fast, hits like a ton, and played in an elite conference facing quality every week
He was available
He was ranked
And even if you didn’t like him pick someone else.....It is a GLARING weakness
Dallas grabbed a beast from Oklahoma as a run stuffer in the 4th.....oh wait.... we didn’t have a 4th!!!

 

[Pugger]

What does everybody see in Queen? Based on what I could see he benefited from having heavy-assed LSU D-Lineman in front of him that you couldn't move with dynamite in front of him. Because of this we don't know what he really is. To me he was only the 4th best ILB on the board. The thing that ****** me off is while we had NO shot at Murray, Brooks went 1 pick after us, and Wilson went about 10 picks after we drafted in the 2nd round. To me they are the #2 and #3 on the board. I can see passing on Brooks for Love, it's a 2023 move, but taking a running back in the 2nd round when we need depth availability and ability at linebacker?

In the second round had we passed on Dillon we could have taken Willie Gay from MS State instead who KC took right afterwards. Cincy took Logan Wilson at the top of the 3rd. Would either of these been a better option in the 2nd?

 

[RicFlairoftheNFL]

I didn't like Gay that early, and yes I think Wilson would have been

 

[Dantés]

What does everybody see in Queen? Based on what I could see he benefited from having heavy-assed LSU D-Lineman in front of him that you couldn't move with dynamite in front of him. Because of this we don't know what he really is. To me he was only the 4th best ILB on the board. The thing that ****** me off is while we had NO shot at Murray, Brooks went 1 pick after us, and Wilson went about 10 picks after we drafted in the 2nd round. To me they are the #2 and #3 on the board. I can see passing on Brooks for Love, it's a 2023 move, but taking a running back in the 2nd round when we need depth availability and ability at linebacker?

The reason Queen was highly regarded is because he has potential in man coverage.

One poster commented that it's really hard to find linebackers in this league. I would actually disagree with that. What's hard to find linebackers who can cover in man.

 

[Dantés]

This is one of the toughest finds for an NFL scout in today's game. NFL caliber 3-4 ILBs are rare; 4-3 MLBs are even rarer. In this draft, there was basically ONE. The falloff after Kenneth Murray was huge.

College defensive coordinators today are interested in LBs that can spy read option QBs and run down 5'8" burner scat backs. That's why most college LBs have skill sets more akin to NFL safeties. That does not cut it in the NFL. In this league, you have 300+ pound guards who can run 5.0 40s and flatten a 220 lb. linebacker/safety on the second level. There are not many Brian Urlachers out there anymore. That's why programs like the 49ers and Titans (Matt LaFleur's training ground) have adopted north/south power running offenses. It's also one of the reasons why the Packers toyed with moving Clay Matthews inside.

Personally, total speculation here but, I predict you're going to see more than a few of these EDGE guys ending up as inside linebackers. Until then, you're going to have to be patient as the position coaches and strength coaches attempt to transform some of these 225 lb "Will" backers into "Sams" and "Mikes".

I don't think this is right at all.

Linebackers are not rare or particularly hard to find. In terms of positional value, relative to other NFL positions, they're on the low end. Quarterbacks, pass rushers (both edge and interior), corners, offensive tackles, and wide receivers all make more than comparable off-ball linebackers. And there was certainly more than one good off-ball linebacker in this class.

What's hard is finding linebackers who can hold up in man coverage. Those are the guys that get paid, because they're rare. But most NFL defenses operate without such a player.

None of the Packers edge players, the Smiths and Gary, are going to be playing snaps at off-ball linebacker. Za'Darius will certainly move inside, both with hand down or standing up, but he's operating as an interior pass rusher, not a stacked linebacker.

And strength coaches are not trying to transform WILLS into SAMS or MIKES. SAM is a disappearing position league wide. Nickel (w/ two stacked LB's) and Dime (w/ one stacked LB) dominate the league. Per Footballoutsiders, the NFL used nickel or dime 75% of the time and base only 25% of the time. The Packers used nickel or dime 81% of the time, and base only 18% of the time.

All that said, I do think you're on to something with your comment in cold. The offense that LaFleur is attempting to build in Green Bay is designed to be able to run down the throat of teams in light personnel, while also being able to pass effectively without substituting. If you play dime against SF when they're in 21 personnel, with Kittle and Juszczyk on the field, they will gash you on the ground. But if you go to base to limit that, those two players will smoke a linebacker in coverage and pick up chunk plays through the air. The key to the system is finding players who can be effective in both ways. Because if you have to substitute, you give the defense a chance to do the same.