Lets talk about anything EXCEPT Adrian Hubbard. (formerly Adrian Hubbard feels some MM love)

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It's not intended to be proof, rather an illustration. Don't expect to get through 3 or 4 playoff games by scoring 30+ each time. Don't count on Rodgers throwing 4 TDs to overcome the defense sh*tting the bed.

I don't expect that to happen. Rodgers has thrown an average of 2.18 TD passes per game during the regular season since becoming the starter in 2008, so it would be foolish to ask him to throw 4 TDs in every single playoff game vs. better competition.

There's no denying the defense has to come up with key stops during the playoffs to win the Super Bowl, it's not more important than the offense scoring points though.
 
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I don't expect that to happen. Rodgers has thrown an average of 2.18 TD passes per game during the regular season since becoming the starter in 2008, so it would be foolish to ask him to throw 4 TDs in every single playoff game vs. better competition.

There's no denying the defense has to come up with key stops during the playoffs to win the Super Bowl, it's not more important than the offense scoring points though.
I didn't say you expected that to happen. But to hear the bellyaching on this board over one 3-and-out in the midst of a complete defensive collapse indicates there are might be some who do.
 
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I didn't say you expected that to happen. But to hear the bellyaching on this board over one 3-and-out in the midst of a complete defensive collapse indicates there are might be some who do.

Well, first of all there were two three-and-outs by the offense within the last seven minutes of regulation during the NFCCG.

While I didn't expect them to score a TD on both occasions getting a single first down on both drives would have helped tremendously.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Well, first of all there were two three-and-outs by the offense within the last seven minutes of regulation during the NFCCG.

While I didn't expect them to score a TD on both occasions getting a single first down on both drives would have helped tremendously.
The complaints I've seen here focus on running Lacy 3 times in the second occurrence, which was the point of the comment.

In any event, the offense went conservative resulting in a 3-and-out with a 12 point lead while running the clock from 6:53 to 5:13, and then again with a 12 point lead while running the clock from 5:04 to 3:52.

While getting one first down on either possession might have made a difference, these 3-and-outs are hardly mortal sins, particularly against a ball control offense on nearly any other day.

Blowing the fake kick coverage, and more acutely the onside kick, resulted in the coach getting fired along with the offending players. On the defensive side of the ball we've seen a couple of part-time players in Hawk and Jones getting fired in a two-fer for their special teams play. I'd assume you'd like to add Williams to the list, but that's another debate already exhausted.

Bottom line, no statistics will dissuade me from the opinion that there is a cultural issue with this defense. Besides getting involved in defensive and ST meetings and planning, McCarthy mentioned that giving up play calling will allow him to pay more attention to what's happening on the sidelines. One might surmise this would include sharing thoughts such as "always be closing" while breaking up premature sideline celebrations and telling his premier player to suck it up because he's needed to close. McCarthy also has attempted leadership building exercises that have not quite taken, but at least there's been an effort.

Where is the DC genius who had nearly complete autonomy in all of this? In the booth on game day, to be sure, but shouldn't this stuff be reinforced by the DC in all but 3 hours per week? Perhaps "delicate genius" would be the more appropriate designation.

Maybe Raji's silly comment isn't so silly...he perceived the need to tell the young guys "winning is important". It seems to me all activities should be built on this message and should not be communicated by a guy who isn't even playing and who, according to his own accounting, has recently come to realize being a nice guy is not enough.

I remain encouraged that we will see a change in the defensive culture with McCarthy's increased involvement.
 

TJV

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With 6:53 left the Packers went three and out and punted the ball with 5:22 left. 3 plays, 6 yards, 1:40. After the INT the Packers got the ball back with 5:04 left at their 43. A run for -4. Another run for -2 and a run for 2 yards. 3 plays, -4 yards, 1:12.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Right...with a 12 point lead.

Isn't this counterargument self-contradictory?

The offense needed to control the ball with a 12 point lead and 6 minutes on the clock because the defense could not be trusted to contain a ball control offense? The 3-and-outs are trees in this forest.
 
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Mondio

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I think the 3 and outs with zero productivity on offense when a single first down would have changed things dramatically are more than just trees in a forest. I think 1 first down, gaining a measly 10 yards would have resulted in the Packers playing in the Super Bowl. Instead it just added fuel to the Seahawks
 
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HardRightEdge

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I find replying to these multi-part parsings of a general theme exhausting, but here goes:

No, by calling a timeout Belichick doesn´t assume the Seahawks are going to score. But in case they do (which is highly probable in a situation like that) he saves some time for Brady to drive them into FG range.
"In case they do" might as well be "assuming they will" in that divided thinking. Seattle, on the other hand was trying to do two things at once, at odds with each other, that contributed to their fatal error.
The Seahawks wouldn´t have been able to run the ball three times with snapping it with 26 seconds left. But they would have been able to get off three plays (two runs) for sure.
I said "unlikely" to be kind in thinking you had earlier contended otherwise. I'm not going to go back and look, saving my interest for the rest of this post. I'll take you at your word that I misread that.
I really have no idea why it was the obvious move for the Seahawks to throw the ball on second down. If they get stopped running the ball on second down they would have had to take a timeout and most likely throw it on third down but there was absolutely no reason to call a pass play there.
There is a reason. Running on second followed by the timeout creates a vulnerability not present when throwing on 2nd. and running on 3rd. If the timeout is burned on 2nd., there's no protection against a mishap on 3rd...a fumbled snap or a receiver getting caught behind the line. This is hardly under the radar...teams consider this factor all the time in game-ending situations. That Belickick would have considered this factor is hardly a stretch.[/QUOTE]
It was Carroll´s and Bevell´s mistake though and had nothing to do with Belichick being a genius.
Where is it exactly that I said Belichick's move was "genius"? You won't find that. Whatever he might have tried had a low probability of success. It was really just a matter of sizing up the situation and choosing an option that had a couple of small advantages.

I do believe he saw Seattle's strategy when they huddled up to run down the clock on 2nd. down. If I saw it surely he saw it. And then he reckoned the odds. Even if he burned his 2 TOs and managed to stop Seattle on 2 downs, if they scored on 4th. down Brady would get the ball back with less than 15 seconds after the pooch kickoff and no timeouts. Playing full stop at preventing the TD had the benefits of being unconflicted, as previously noted, while forcing Seattle to attempt at least one throw, with second down being the obvious choice as noted.

The other plausible option was calling timeout after first down, letting them score on 2nd., and getting the ball back with a little under 1:00 minute and one timeout. For all you and I know, letting an opponent score would have been so viscerally repugnant to Belichick it was never contemplated, even if it was a plausible option, Holmgren's similar move notwithstanding. Personally, I'd rather lose trying than asking players to lay down.

So, Belichick puts his run defense out there on 2nd. down against Seattle's 3-wide pass set with Job #1 being a stop on Lynch. The whole thing is one down at a time, and the bet for that down was that the same Russell Wilson who threw 3 INTs in 7 passes against the Packers might have a brain fart if he chose to throw. He did. I can't help that the conflicted thinking...it's a waste play, but score if you can was a contributing factor in Wilson throwing into a crowded box.

Despite the fact Belichick got very lucky, playing a couple of small advantages in a long shot situation worked in his favor. That's not genius; it's just picking a marginally better strategy in a bad situation. I'd call it good coaching. The idea that Belichick was the one with the brain fart, losing track of or mismanaging the clock, as some have contended is not plausible.
Lynch was stopped on first down with more than a minute left on the clock. The Seahawks would have been able to run the ball three times with the benefit of a huddle if they had decided to snap the ball early on second down.
Are you quoting me back to myself? I guess you didn't see my "what if" regarding Seattle snapping the ball at 0:35 (or 0:40 or 0:45 if you prefer) instead of 0:26. That's what Seattle should have done in that situation, with a run blocking set. Even if they intended to pass, the intent on 2nd. down would have been less obvious.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I think the 3 and outs with zero productivity on offense when a single first down would have changed things dramatically are more than just trees in a forest. I think 1 first down, gaining a measly 10 yards would have resulted in the Packers playing in the Super Bowl. Instead it just added fuel to the Seahawks
There was a prudent, singular objective in those 3-and-outs. DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER. That's going to inhibit offensive mojo. In that circumstance, with score and that amount time remaining such as it was, a first down qualifies as a "nice to have", with failure to achieve it hardly egregious or unexpected. It was a risk averse result in a situation that called for risk aversion.

On the first of those two 3-and-outs, imagine if Rogers had not been focused on putting the ball where no defender could touch it and where Quarless couldn't tip it on the 3rd. down throw. We could be talking about that play in the same terms as Wilson's brain fart.

You can quote all the stats and cite all the "what ifs" you like, but it comes down to who does what at closing time, and I cannot be convinced the blame falls squarely on the defense.
 
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Mondio

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you gotta know quoting stats isn't my thing, what if's are the only thing we have at this point, and I don't post on here to convince anyone of anything. Just to hear myself talk mostly and kill some time :)
 

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Right...with a 12 point lead.

Isn't this counterargument self-contradictory?

The offense needed to control the ball with a 12 point lead and 6 minutes on the clock because the defense could not be trusted to contain a ball control offense? The 3-and-outs are trees in this forest.


The same defense that you're so intent on decrying as terrible got FOUR EXTRA POSSESSIONS FOR THE OFFENSE! Or do those four forced turnovers not matter because they don't fit your narrative?

There are issues with the defense (those issues are more personnel related than coaching) but the defense is pretty far down the list of offenders in that loss. Conservative coaching and terrible special teams would be the main culprits and I'm not even sure I could blame a defense that forced Wilson into FOUR INTERCEPTIONS for the loss. This wasn't Jay freakin' Cutler. This was Russell Wilson. The "terrible" defense forced him to commit, in one game, more than half the interceptions he had thrown in the prior 16 games combined!
 
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HardRightEdge

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The same defense that you're so intent on decrying as terrible got FOUR EXTRA POSSESSIONS FOR THE OFFENSE! Or do those four forced turnovers not matter because they don't fit your narrative?

There are issues with the defense (those issues are more personnel related than coaching) but the defense is pretty far down the list of offenders in that loss. Conservative coaching and terrible special teams would be the main culprits and I'm not even sure I could blame a defense that forced Wilson into FOUR INTERCEPTIONS for the loss. This wasn't Jay freakin' Cutler. This was Russell Wilson. The "terrible" defense forced him to commit, in one game, more than half the interceptions he had thrown in the prior 16 games combined!
I am unconvinced. And it's nothing Adrian Hubbard can solve. ;)
 

Sunshinepacker

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I feel like more threads should have modified titles like this one. Or maybe just have one really huge thread that has 75 titles based on the most recent conversation.
 
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Right...with a 12 point lead.

Isn't this counterargument self-contradictory?

The offense needed to control the ball with a 12 point lead and 6 minutes on the clock because the defense could not be trusted to contain a ball control offense? The 3-and-outs are trees in this forest.

There was no reason to not trust the defense at that point of the game as they had forced several turnovers and held the Seahawks offense scoreless.

There is a reason. Running on second followed by the timeout creates a vulnerability not present when throwing on 2nd. and running on 3rd. If the timeout is burned on 2nd., there's no protection against a mishap on 3rd...a fumbled snap or a receiver getting caught behind the line. This is hardly under the radar...teams consider this factor all the time in game-ending situations. That Belickick would have considered this factor is hardly a stretch.

All of the things you mentioned could happen on 2nd down as well, forcing the Seahawks to burn their timeout after a passing play. IMO there was no reason to throw the ball in that situation.

Where is it exactly that I said Belichick's move was "genius"? You won't find that. Whatever he might have tried had a low probability of success. It was really just a matter of sizing up the situation and choosing an option that had a couple of small advantages.

It wasn´t you calling Belichick a genius but some other posters mentioned him not calling a timeout the best call in Super Bowl history, which I obviously disagree with.

There was a prudent, singular objective in those 3-and-outs. DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER. That's going to inhibit offensive mojo. In that circumstance, with score and that amount time remaining such as it was, a first down qualifies as a "nice to have", with failure to achieve it hardly egregious or unexpected. It was a risk averse result in a situation that called for risk aversion.

You can quote all the stats and cite all the "what ifs" you like, but it comes down to who does what at closing time, and I cannot be convinced the blame falls squarely on the defense.

Wilson´s TD run that made it 19-14 happened with 2:09 minutes left. A single first down on any of those drives would have made a huge impact, taking two minutes off the clock.
 
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HardRightEdge

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There was no reason to not trust the defense at that point of the game as they had forced several turnovers and held the Seahawks offense scoreless.
So, we agree. The risk averse play calling, emphasizing DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER, was a prudent thing to do.

Expecting the defense to prevent the stumbling ball control Seattle offense to be able to put up those points in that amount of time is reasonable. It's not a high bar.

The point being, the defense failed. The proof is in the putting.
It wasn´t you calling Belichick a genius but some other posters mentioned him not calling a timeout the best call in Super Bowl history, which I obviously disagree with.
I would not call that play a "genius" move, as mentioned, but it was consistent with his way of doing business.

He seems to be always looking for a little edge here or there, when he cheats and when he doesn't.
 
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So, we agree. The risk averse play calling, emphasizing DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER, was a prudent thing to do.

No, I didn't like the play calling during these two drives. The Seahawks stacked the box with 8 or 9 guys while Sherman was playing with one arm. I would have loved McCarthy to be more aggressive and throw at him. For that to happen he would have had to know about Sherman's injury.
 

TJV

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No, I didn't like the play calling during these two drives. The Seahawks stacked the box with 8 or 9 guys while Sherman was playing with one arm. I would have loved McCarthy to be more aggressive and throw at him. For that to happen he would have had to know about Sherman's injury.
Play action to Lacy and a safe pass by one of the best QBs in NFL history at avoiding INTs would have been a great call IMO.
 
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HardRightEdge

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No, I didn't like the play calling during these two drives. The Seahawks stacked the box with 8 or 9 guys while Sherman was playing with one arm. I would have loved McCarthy to be more aggressive and throw at him. For that to happen he would have had to know about Sherman's injury.
You can't have it both ways. Either you would have expected the defense to hold the fort as you said earlier, in a not particularly challenging set of circumstances, or you would have thought the defense needed the help as you suggest now.

While I generally agree with your posts or can at least appreciate the viewpoint, the idea of throwing at Sherman in those closing 6 minutes I find to be ludicrous.

In retrospect, based on what actually happened, the defense evidently needed that help, and that's the problem. It should not have been required. At the time, it was understandable to think they didn't.

In the end, in that situation, running the ball 5 times while covering up and throwing once where no defender could possibly touch it falls squarely in the range of "standard operating procedure."

Letting Wilson, et. al., bolt up and down the field at will for 6 minutes, 200+ yards, and 3 TDs is so shockingly bad that if anybody had said in advance that would happen nobody would believe it. The offense did was was called for; the defense sh*t the bed.
 
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You can't have it both ways. Either you would have expected the defense to hold the fort as you said earlier, in a not particularly challenging set of circumstances, or you would have thought the defense needed the help as you suggest now.

While I generally agree with your posts or can at least appreciate the viewpoint, the idea of throwing at Sherman in those closing 6 minutes I find to be ludicrous.

In retrospect, based on what actually happened, the defense evidently needed that help, and that's the problem. It should not have been required. At the time, it was understandable to think they didn't.

In the end, in that situation, running the ball 5 times while covering up and throwing once where no defender could possibly touch it falls squarely in the range of "standard operating procedure."

Letting Wilson, et. al., bolt up and down the field at will for 6 minutes, 200+ yards, and 3 TDs is so shockingly bad that if anybody had said in advance that would happen nobody would believe it. The offense did was was called for; the defense sh*t the bed.

I would have liked the offense to use the entire playbook and be aggressive in trying to get first downs.

IMO it's ludicrous to run five out of six times against a defense putting extra guys in the box. OTOH I don't understand why a Packers fan wouldn't like the chances of Nelson catching a ball against a cornerback playing with a severly injured arm.

At that point in the game I didn't expect the defense needing any help (they got another interception after the offense's first three-and-out). Solely blaming the loss on the defense after the offense scored a terrible six points off five turnovers and two huge mistakes by the special teams isn't an objective analysis of the game.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Solely blaming the loss on the defense after the offense scored a terrible six points off five turnovers and two huge mistakes by the special teams isn't an objective analysis of the game.
Where did I say that I "solely" blame the loss on the defense? No, I primarily blame the loss on the defense for failing to close it out. And the way they booted the game away indicates to me a dysfunctional culture that goes beyond one game.

As for Sherman, I would say judging from his pick earlier in the game, whatever was wrong with his shoulder was bothering him not in the least in coverage.

The offensive key to the SB win was attacking Polamalu who was gimped up with a bad Achilles. This was not that.
 
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Where did I say that I "solely" blame the loss on the defense? No, I primarily blame the loss on the defense for failing to close it out. And the way they booted the game away indicates to me a dysfunctional culture that goes beyond one game.

As for Sherman, I would say judging from his pick earlier in the game, whatever was wrong with his shoulder was bothering him not in the least in coverage.

The offensive key to the SB win was attacking Polamalu who was gimped up with a bad Achilles. This was not that.

Even primarily blaming the defense us the wrong approach in evaluating the NFCCG.

Sherman suffered the elbow injury in the fourth quarter so I really have no idea what his interception in the first quarter has to do with his ability to make plays at the end of the game.
 
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