Lets talk about anything EXCEPT Adrian Hubbard. (formerly Adrian Hubbard feels some MM love)

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

With all respect, you didn't understand my post. The point was not only how well the Packers played for 56 minutes, it was the blame for the loss should not be confined to the defense. It was a “perfect **** storm” with all three units of the team failing to close. IMO it’s foolish to ignore any portion or aspect of that game. Certainly how well they played for 56 minutes gives them a blueprint for beating the Seahawks and how the offense, defense, and STs failed at the end of the game point to what has to be corrected. As I posted, I hope (and believe) addressing all three from a “macro view” is why McCarthy gave up play calling. Failing to fully evaluate a loss is a failure. Period.

I see your point and we are in agreement. It was a perfect storm and you can find at least one play from the O, D, and STs that could have changed the outcome. Ultimately MM has to accept ownership for the loss and I think he has. If this team can play half as well as they did in those first 56 minutes, they will have a great season. Let's face it, they played so well that a lot of the loyal, collective "12th man" we're leaving the stadium. That's impressive anywhere but especially at that venue. I think 2015 will be a great year for the Pack.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Im really not for Hubbard moving inside that much. I just prefer all options open. When someone tells me no, a 23 year old world class athlete can not play both inside or outside LB position. I just disagree.

Good point, especially just entering the NFL. It's a new game and someone as clearly gifted as Hubbard should be able to play inside and outside. Matthews does it and he is a gifted athlete. I see no reason to box Hubbard as an inside or outside LB. Let's see how re preseason goes. This guy could end up being a huge steal, or bust but at little or no cost.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Good point, especially just entering the NFL. It's a new game and someone as clearly gifted as Hubbard should be able to play inside and outside. Matthews does it and he is a gifted athlete. I see no reason to box Hubbard as an inside or outside LB. Let's see how re preseason goes. This guy could end up being a huge steal, or bust but at little or no cost.

Once again, Hubbard had a terrible 4.58 20-yard shuttle, a drill which measures change-of-direction ability. He´s not agile enough to play inside.

As a comparison Matthews had a 4.18 time during the combine with Stephone Anthony (4.03) and Eric Kendricks (4.14) being way faster than Hubbard as well.

 

[Mondio]

The idea that McCarthy is giving up play calling as a mentoring exercise is magical thinking.

I don't think he's giving it up as a mentoring exercise. I think the mentoring has been happening for a few seasons and now was the time for MM to give up some responsibility and for someone else to take it on. That approach is written all over everything this staff does.

 

[Mondio]

Of the last dozen or so posts, none have been about Hubbard. Instead it has turned into another rehash of the NFCCG of which are many existing threads without needing to hijack another. At what point will this get back on track?

It's a message board, topics take on completely new meanings after a few pages. On football boards, guitar forums, dog training forums, mechanic forums, take your pick. If people are still having a discussion is it really all that bad?

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Once again, Hubbard had a terrible 4.58 20-yard shuttle, a drill which measures change-of-direction ability. He´s not agile enough to play inside.

As a comparison Matthews had a 4.18 time during the combine with Stephone Anthony (4.03) and Eric Kendricks (4.14) being way faster than Hubbard as well.

Interesting thanks. I thought one of the posters said he didn't participate in the shuttle but clearly he did. Compared to Matthews et. al. this time is terrible. Agree that this would rule out inside play where agility and "fast twitch" muscle reaction are critical.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Interesting thanks. I thought one of the posters said he didn't participate in the shuttle but clearly he did. Compared to Matthews et. al. this time is terrible. Agree that this would rule out inside play where agility and "fast twitch" muscle reaction are critical.

He didn´t participate in the shuttle at the combine but ran it at his pro day.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Once again, Hubbard had a terrible 4.58 20-yard shuttle, a drill which measures change-of-direction ability. He´s not agile enough to play inside.

As a comparison Matthews had a 4.18 time during the combine with Stephone Anthony (4.03) and Eric Kendricks (4.14) being way faster than Hubbard as well.

To be fair though, you just compared an undrafted free agent's time to two first round draft picks and a high second rounder. All three of those guys were drafted to be amongst the best in the NFL at their positions. Hubbard, on the other hand, should be deemed a success if he becomes a good special teams player and decent backup at ILB.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

To be fair though, you just compared an undrafted free agent's time to two first round draft picks and a high second rounder. All three of those guys were drafted to be amongst the best in the NFL at their positions. Hubbard, on the other hand, should be deemed a success if he becomes a good special teams player and decent backup at ILB.

I compared Hubbard to inside linebackers (as some have suggested to move him there for whatever reason) which isn't fair because he is an OLB. This isn't meant as a knock on him as it's possible he will turn into a decent edge rusher but he won't become an ILB at the pro level.

 

[mradtke66]

To be fair though, you just compared an undrafted free agent's time to two first round draft picks and a high second rounder. All three of those guys were drafted to be amongst the best in the NFL at their positions. Hubbard, on the other hand, should be deemed a success if he becomes a good special teams player and decent backup at ILB.

Guys. Come on. 3-4 are more akin to 4-3 defensive ends. This is why projecting him inside is weird. If anything, that he was an undrafted free agent makes it less likely for him to succeed inside--he lacks the specific athletic traits to succeed inside. Would you project Peppers to succeed at ILB?

And we haven't even talked about the difference in the scheme. He's never done it before. So now he has to overcome physical limitations that apply to the position AND learn a new way to play?

Matthews pulls it off because even among the NFL, he is a special athlete.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Pollyanna and Scientology auditor weighing in here.
I'm not in a box however. I also don't think the org leadership are beyond reproach. As head coach, McCarthy needs to be in Capers business. I'm just more accepting of the fact that there are other really good teams in the NFL and they are capable of winning playoff games and championships as well. We don't operate in a vacuum. Every Sunday is an opposing force consisted of professionals. This organization is very successful measured against it's peers. I'm not going to slam leadership and coaches because of poor execution by several players in the last 5 minutes.

I'm not "slamming leadership and coaches". I'm slamming Capers quite specifically.

Losing is not the issue...the way these playoff games of recent years have been lost is the issue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...there are two surefire ways anybody should know their job is on the line, though these two ways are certainly not the only ones. One way, as in the Slocum case, is having a "consultant" hired to work with said individual. This is presented as assistance but it is actually a process of close evaluation of a struggling performer...either he turns it around right now or he'll see the door. Then hiring the consultant to take the job is a classic move. Another, as in the case of Capers, as noted earlier, is the boss getting into the weeds regarding an underling's business.

Capers had been allowed to operate with nearly complete autonomy. I was surprised to read recently that until this off season McCarthy had not attended a defensive position meeting in his entire time as head coach. Not anymore.

After the Seattle debacle, the special teams coach...fired; a special teams player making a critical mistake...fired. Hawk and Jones...fired. Williams...allowed to walk. Now McCarthy is stepping in to work with both units. Was anybody on offense fired? No, but there were promotions. I'm sure this move is also a way to evaluate potential DC material among the assistants. It's also a way to work the sidelines with the message, "always be closing", something absent from the defensive culture.

It's pretty clear what the organization thinks is the problem here. Whether that's at McCarthy's sole initiative or Thompson "suggesting" he take a firmer grip on the reins, who could say. But there is clear recognition of an issue to be addressed. Either way, another instance of the defense getting run into the ditch in the playoffs this season should result in Capers' retirement.

I won't say "fire Capers" again because it's way too late for that this season. I'll remain optimistic he can, with McCarthy's input, turn it around. But a repeat collapse on the defensive side of the ball should put an end to this disappointing saga.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't think he's giving it up as a mentoring exercise. I think the mentoring has been happening for a few seasons and now was the time for MM to give up some responsibility and for someone else to take it on. That approach is written all over everything this staff does.

Correct. You don't take a premier offense that gets you to the playoffs every year and turn it into a mentoring exercise. This move is not made without confidence that the offense is in competent hands now.

Clements was, of course, promoted to Associate Head Coach and play caller, with 18 years NFL coaching experience...he's the guy.

Long before the Seattle debacle or McCarthy surrendering the play calling, I noted that having the play caller on the sidelines is a generally bad idea for a simple reason...he can't see sh*t from there. So the new arrangement has a bonus...the play caller is where he should be...in the booth.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Once again, Hubbard had a terrible 4.58 20-yard shuttle, a drill which measures change-of-direction ability. He´s not agile enough to play inside.

As a comparison Matthews had a 4.18 time during the combine with Stephone Anthony (4.03) and Eric Kendricks (4.14) being way faster than Hubbard as well.

It's interesting to note that Hubbard's Combine 40 yd. dash and intermediate times were nearly identical to Matthews:

Hubbard: 40 yd. = 4.69 / 20 yd. = 2.71 / 10 yd. = 1.61
Matthews: 40 yd. = 4.67 / 20 yd. = 2.71 / 10 yd.= 1.61

Matthews did shave nearly 1/10 off his 40 and 3/100 off his split times at his Pro Day whereas Hubbard did not sprint at his Pro Day.

The point being, while Hubbard looks stiff, an occupational hazard in a guy 6'6", he has some straight line giddyup off the ball even if the lack of agility gets him stalled out. Like Perry, he's got a good bull rush but not much in the way of moves. He gets off run blocks pretty well; good pad level and balance, which is a frequent problem with these tall guys. He looks just plain strong if not very athletic other than in a straight line.

He's entirely unfit for ILB as you suggest. He strikes me as a strong side OLB; a guy decent against the run who can chip in with some pocket penetration. This is not a 10 sack guy. Truth be told, I see him more as an undersized DE in the incredible-shrinking-Neal mold.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

I'm not "slamming leadership and coaches". I'm slamming Capers quite specifically.

Losing is not the issue...the way these playoff games of recent years have been lost is the issue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...there are two surefire ways anybody should know their job is on the line, though these two ways are certainly not the only ones. One way, as in the Slocum case, is having a "consultant" hired to work with said individual. This is presented as assistance but it is actually a process of close evaluation of a struggling performer...either he turns it around right now or he'll see the door. Then hiring the consultant to take the job is a classic move. Another, as in the case of Capers, as noted earlier, is the boss getting into the weeds regarding an underling's business.

Capers had been allowed to operate with nearly complete autonomy. I was surprised to read recently that until this off season McCarthy had not attended a defensive position meeting in his entire time as head coach. Not anymore.

After the Seattle debacle, the special teams coach...fired; a special teams player making a critical mistake...fired. Hawk and Jones...fired. Williams...allowed to walk. Now McCarthy is stepping in to work with both units. Was anybody on offense fired? No, but there were promotions. I'm sure this move is also a way to evaluate potential DC material among the assistants. It's also a way to work the sidelines with the message, "always be closing", something absent from the defensive culture.

It's pretty clear what the organization thinks is the problem here. Whether that's at McCarthy's sole initiative or Thompson "suggesting" he take a firmer grip on the reins, who could say. But there is clear recognition of an issue to be addressed. Either way, another instance of the defense getting run into the ditch in the playoffs this season should result in Capers' retirement.

I won't say "fire Capers" again because it's way too late for that this season. I'll remain optimistic he can, with McCarthy's input, turn it around. But a repeat collapse on the defensive side of the ball should put an end to this disappointing saga.

I never would have guessed Capers had that kind of autonomy. That's on MM and to some extent TT. What has Capers done in his time here, and it's been a long time? If he was well thought of, he'd be a HC somewhere. Oh wait, he was. I hate to see another year with Rodgers at his peak wasted by a brittle defense. It's gotten past old. If GB fails to win the NFCCG this year, time for Dom to retire. Too many young, talented, creative guys out there to hang onto an ineffective dinosaur. Personally I'm sick of it, and cite lack of management cajones. We can't fire poor ol Dom, he's a nice guy. What a load of garbage. Actually SB or not, this has to be his last year. I mean, GadZOOKS!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

What has Capers done in his time here, and it's been a long time?

During Capers' first season as the Packers defensive coordinator the team finished 7th in points allowed and featured the league's best run defense.

In 2010 the Packers ranked second in points allowed and led the league in opponent's passer rating. During the playoffs, the Packers won the Super Bowl that year in case you forgot, the defense played a vital role in every single game, intercepting a total of eight passes and returning three of them for TDs.

While there's a significant dropoff in performance since then you have to realize that after winning it all in 2010 the defense lost some key guys in Cullen Jenkins (who left in free agency) and Nick Collins (who suffered a career ending injury in the second game of 2011).

Unfortunately it took Thompson several seasons to adequately address those losses and there's some merit to the argument inside linebacker hasn't been upgraded enough.

Nevertheless the Packers lead the league in most interceptions and according to the Press Gazette in opponent's passer rating over Capers tenure.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think that Capers has done everything right (I was furious at him for not preparing for the read option prior to the 2012 playoff loss vs. the Niners) but ignoring the fact that he has had success while with the Packers is the wrong way to look at his contributions.

 

[TJV]

Good post, captainWIMM. I have called for Capers' firing too but never thought it would be a cure-all because of the level of talent at some spots on D. What DC could make a starting safety tandem of MD Jennings and McMillian work? Joe Nor Cal Packer, I'm not sure if this is just hyperbole but if not, who said Capers can't be fired because he's a nice guy? And if the defense contributes significantly to a Super Bowl win, you still want to see him fired?

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

During Capers' first season as the Packers defensive coordinator the team finished 7th in points allowed and featured the league's best run defense.

In 2010 the Packers ranked second in points allowed and led the league in opponent's passer rating. During the playoffs, the Packers won the Super Bowl that year in case you forgot, the defense played a vital role in every single game, intercepting a total of eight passes and returning three of them for TDs.

While there's a significant dropoff in performance since then you have to realize that after winning it all in 2010 the defense lost some key guys in Cullen Jenkins (who left in free agency) and Nick Collins (who suffered a career ending injury in the second game of 2011).

Unfortunately it took Thompson several seasons to adequately address those losses and there's some merit to the argument inside linebacker hasn't been upgraded enough.

Nevertheless the Packers lead the league in most interceptions and according to the Press Gazette in opponent's passer rating over Capers tenure.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think that Capers has done everything right (I was furious at him for not preparing for the read option prior to the 2012 playoff loss vs. the Niners) but ignoring the fact that he has had success while with the Packers is the wrong way to look at his contributions.

Your comments are great and paint a good picture of Capers' career in GB. I was also thinking that TT didn't do him any favors by spending first round picks on Perry and Datone Jones, while having much more success with offensive players in the draft. You were furious about the 2012 miners game, so was I. I was just as furious when he failed to take advantage of a one-armed Richard Sherman in the NFCCG. I certainly hope he and the D return too something resembling the 2010 D. For some reason, I think Randall, Rollins, and Ryan (alliteration unintended) are really going to help this year. Hope so!

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Good post, captainWIMM. I have called for Capers' firing too but never thought it would be a cure-all because of the level of talent at some spots on D. What DC could make a starting safety tandem of MD Jennings and McMillian work? Joe Nor Cal Packer, I'm not sure if this is just hyperbole but if not, who said Capers can't be fired because he's a nice guy? And if the defense contributes significantly to a Super Bowl win, you still want to see him fired?

The nice guy comment was hyperbole and there's something about winning a championship that redeems all. I also pointed out below the lost D draft picks, Perry and Jones. I have a hunch that if GB wins the SB Capers may retire. While I admit I used a harsh light in my criticism, it would be good for GB to get younger at the coaching level - well OK specifically DC. Certainly Capers is a very accomplished coach. I guess I'd just like to see a change in DC. That may not be fair because I'm being subjective rather than objective. And I also believe that it is the D, more often than not, that decides the SB winner. Thanks to all for the thoughtful comments.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You were furious about the 2012 miners game, so was I. I was just as furious when he failed to take advantage of a one-armed Richard Sherman in the NFCCG.

I'm quite sure that is kind of a spelling mistake on your part but that one is solely on the offensive coaching staff.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Once again, Hubbard had a terrible 4.58 20-yard shuttle, a drill which measures change-of-direction ability. He´s not agile enough to play inside.

As a comparison Matthews had a 4.18 time during the combine with Stephone Anthony (4.03) and Eric Kendricks (4.14) being way faster than Hubbard as well.

That weakness is obvious, and just a drill. Some guys, as you know, have a different gear for game day. ILB is mostly instincts too. Instincts combined with that 6'6" 257 pound frame that has a 38.5" verticle jump... This is only considerinb the pass game too...

I'd also like to point out that Hubbard was an undrafted steal and all the guys you mentioned in comparison were 1st round picks.

Against the run, ILBs that have the mobility you speak of, tend to be smallish... We have a beefy hybrid CB/S corps that covers and tackles well. Richardson even played ILB in a dime sub-package if i remember right. Anyways, that seems to be our model for ILB... Now we move a 250 pound beastly Mathews inside and our run defense becomes very good right away? after stinking for half a decade??? Maybe a larger ILB is worth a try? maybe? can i get a dang maybe?

The ILBs you mentioned.

Mathews, who you believe should be a OLB, correct? 6'3" 255. and he's dang good IMO But he ran at 240 as a rookie when your numbers were posted.
Anthony, 6'3 243
Kendricks a tiny 6' 232. He'd get demolished in the run...

Now Kendricks may have been "way faster" in the 20 yd dash... But Hubbard runs the 40 in only 8/100 of a second slower. So Kendricks runt rear was faster by .45 seconds in the first 20 yds. He was -.37 slower in the second 20 yds. Anthony was .55sec faster in 20 and .-42 seconds slower than Hubbard in the second 20 yards... Maybe not a dominant ILB trait but worth noting...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That weakness is obvious, and just a drill. Some guys, as you know, have a different gear for game day. ILB is mostly instincts too.

First of all Hubbard has never played inside so why do you think he has the perfect instincts to move to ILB??? BTW if you think the position is all about instincts take a look at Hawk's performance in 2014.

I'd also like to point out that Hubbard was an undrafted steal and all the guys you mentioned in comparison were 1st round picks.

Hubbard wasn't able to get off the practice squad last season, I think it's way too early to consider him a steal.

Against the run, ILBs that have the mobility you speak of, tend to be smallish... We have a beefy hybrid CB/S corps that covers and tackles well. Richardson even played ILB in a dime sub-package if i remember right. Anyways, that seems to be our model for ILB... Now we move a 250 pound beastly Mathews inside and our run defense becomes very good right away? after stinking for half a decade??? Maybe a larger ILB is worth a try? maybe? can i get a dang maybe?

Teams need an agile player defending the run at inside linebacker. Hubbard doesn't fit that bill. BTW while our secondary excelled in coverage they had issues tackling the ball carrier.

Mathews, who you believe should be a OLB, correct? 6'3" 255. and he's dang good IMO But he ran at 240 as a rookie when your numbers were posted.
Anthony, 6'3 243
Kendricks a tiny 6' 232. He'd get demolished in the run...

Kendricks will be fine defending the run. There have been smaller ILBs who had a great career.

Now Kendricks may have been "way faster" in the 20 yd dash... But Hubbard runs the 40 in only 8/100 of a second slower. So Kendricks runt rear was faster by .45 seconds in the first 20 yds. He was -.37 slower in the second 20 yds. Anthony was .55sec faster in 20 and .-42 seconds slower than Hubbard in the second 20 yards.

What are you talking about???

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

I'm quite sure that is kind of a spelling mistake on your part but that one is solely on the offensive coaching staff.

Oops you are correct that was on the O. Sorry Dom Capers!

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

First of all Hubbard has never played inside so why do you think he has the perfect instincts to move to ILB???.BTW if you think the position is all about instincts take a look at Hawk's performance in 2014.


Hubbard wasn't able to get off the practice squad last season, I think it's way too early to consider him a steal.


Teams need an agile player defending the run at inside linebacker. Hubbard doesn't fit that bill. BTW while our secondary excelled in coverage they had issues tackling the ball carrier.What I seen was a LOT better tackling from our secondary. True Clinton Dix and a few others bounced off dominant ball carriers from time to time. but i seen gang tackling, and more one on one wins from the secondary, with help from Hyde, and Dix. They were everywhere IMO.



Kendricks will be fine defending the run. There have been smaller ILBs who had a great career. I dont deny that. But i wouldnt invest on the odds of him doing so. personally.



What are you talking about???

I didnt say he had the perfect instincts. I said ILBs depend on instincts. . MAYBE he has them, and we wouldnt know until we try. The numbers on the 20 yd dash dont translate as much if hubbard runs faster during the game, and he gets a better jump on the ball because of speculated instincts..What does hawk have to do with anything?

He was like Janis. a developmental steal In my book. He was projected a 3-4 rounder with upside before they discovered a heart condition.

What I seen was a LOT better tackling from our secondary. True Clinton Dix and a few others bounced off dominant ball carriers from time to time. but i seen gang tackling, and more one on one wins from the secondary, with help from Hyde, and Dix. They were everywhere IMO.

What do you mean what am i talking about???

40 yard dash - 20 yard dash shows how fast the player is in the second 20 of the 40 yard dash. Hubbard is much faster. Its like Jordy Nelsons top end speed not registering at the combine on the 40 yd dash. I bet Hubbard flat out flies when not starting from a 3 point sprinters stance. The over all top end speed and athleticism is worth something.

I still stand by the theory that he COULD be a Peppers type big impact player in the middle. Or at OLB too for that matter.

 

[TJV]

I have a hunch that if GB wins the SB Capers may retire.

I don't think so, I think it's more likely he'll leave Green Bay after being fired:

Dom Capers easily envisions himself coaching at age 70 if not well beyond. The Packers' defensive coordinator is 64 but relishes the challenge, doesn't complain about the backbreaking hours and regards Green Bay as the best of the eight National Football League franchises for which he has worked.

The article mentions that **** LeBeau, who is 77, is looking for another job and since the article was written in January he found one with the Titans. There are three DCs who are older than Capers.

According to the article:

In Capers' six seasons, the Packers rank fourth in take-aways (182), seventh in points allowed (20.9), 11th in yards allowed (343.4), 12th in passing yards allowed (231.2) and 14th in rushing yards allowed (112.2).

In 10 playoff games under Capers, the Packers have 19 take-aways while allowing averages of 26.3 points and 378.4 yards, including 138.8 rushing and 239.6 passing.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

I don't think so, I think it's more likely he'll leave Green Bay after being fired: The article mentions that **** LeBeau, who is 77, is looking for another job and since the article was written in January he found one with the Titans. There are three DCs who are older than Capers.

According to the article:

I'm not a big fan of stats except one - SB championships. If GB doesn't do something to shore up the D and STs, then Rodgers best years will have been wasted. I don't care if Capers wants to coach until he's 100. 1 good season doesn't guarantee anything. GB needs a shot of youth and imagination in the coaching team responsible for this D. D wins championships. Ask Peyton Manning.