Joe Whitt / Winston Moss FIRED - merged threads

[GleefulGary]

Problem is HHCD was tweeting around wanting to be traded. It was apparent he wasn't willing to become a better player for us and is just another one of Ted's busts who unlike Hyde and Heyward actually has not improved in Washington.

The only thing I consider maybe doing wrong by Gute was not grabbing Derwin James while our whole chat room was clamoring for it. Now true, it may have meant we don't have Alexander if we did, but we still might have snagged some decent corners later, and if James was here staying healthy all season, we may have had our safety position addressed.

Course now, I am of course assuming he wouldn't have gotten mucked up by Whitt's lousy positioning in his scheme.

It's Pettine's scheme.

 

[Mondio]

Scouting reports on Jackson:
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-jackson?id=32462018-0002-5600-3068-0cebf6c8b276

Weaknesses

• One-year wonder
• Has just 14 career starts
• Early opener from press
• Needs more experience and more patience
• Too easily influenced by release fakes at the line of scrimmage
• Can be turned by quality routes
• Doesn't flash a big chase burst when he gets behind on the routes (crossers)
• Needs to tighten up tackling
• Questions are being raised about his long speed
• Buys into route breaks a little too hard from trail and can be double-moved

We all know his strengths from his 1 year at IA. anyway, I don't think he's regressed at all this season, why do others? because he had to grab someone last week as they went by him? that happens to everyone. Sherman made a living off of that. I think he's had 1 tough game this year where he seemed to have a lot of shots taken at him, the rest he's held his own pretty well.

I think he's going to be a 2-3 year bloomer as he got by with a ton of instinct at IA, but physically he is limited. Not in college, but in the NFL, he's not out athlete'ing anybody. He's having to learn a lot of technique and I think he's doing better. Coming in he was very handsy and grabby. He's gotten better. But within an NFL scheme when you're not playing perfectly, you're letting everyone else down. He's smart enough to know that and is working on his craft, but that has limited his instincts. Once he's knows what he needs, he'll be reacting faster and he's going to be really good. But he's going to take a season or 2 to get there.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Uhhh...who didn't think Jackson was raw? He only started one year in college! Pretty much everybody said there was a lot of ability there, but he was coming in raw. Do you really think everybody who is a first rounder isn't raw?

Rollins played football one year after playing basketball for 4 years. Is that not coming out raw? Randall was a safety playing out of position at CB. Kevin King came out needing a lot of technique work to play CB, and guess what?! He's gotten it! Look at his tape from this year compared to his rookie year, it's a dramatic difference.

Whitt got Randall to play CB pretty well. He's developed King to play pretty well. He has Alexander playing pretty well. But the last two don't count because they're in the first couple rounds, and those guy just always come in good. None of them are ever bad. Look. Whitt doesn't get to draft the players. He coaches what he has, and right now, it ain't much. King is constantly hurt, Alexander is good (but still a rookie), Jackson is raw, Breeland is meh, Williams is at safety and he's old, Tony Brown is an UDFA...where's the talent he's supposed to coach up bud? Does Cleveland's coach have Randall playing well at CB? Rollins has been on the street for most of the season, is that Whitt's fault he couldn't coach that up? So I'll ask again, this talent...where is it? Cause outside of 2-3 guys, I ain't seeing it.

So let me ask you and other Whitt apologists. What makes Whitt a great coach? Give me some reasons and examples of what he has done that would make me believe he should be kept. If they only include the name Sam Shields and comments made by Charles Woodson, don't bother.

 

[Mondio]

So let me ask you and other Whitt apologists. What makes Whitt a great coach? Give me some reasons and examples of what he has done that would make me believe he should be kept. If they only include the name Sam Shields and comments made by Charles Woodson, don't bother.

I've answered that question so many times, and still you want to label people apologists and think we're nominating him for defensive coach of the year or something. By the simple fact that our starters when on the field looked really dang good for basically having 3 first year players on the field is proof enough that he's at least a decent coach.

The fact that it looks worse when there are 4 UDFA's some signed last week on the field is your proof he's not good isn't exactly solid ground. Oh yeah, he didn't coach Rollins to the pro bowl after 1 good rookie year, and injury plagued year and then a torn achilles.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I can play the same game and call Jackson anything but "raw" which is what JJ referred to him as:

"Jackson has some of the best ball skills and instincts in this class, he is excellent at finding the football when it’s in the air which helped him lead the nation in interceptions and passes defended this past year. He also came up big in important games and combined for 5 interceptions against Ohio State and Wisconsin, two of which he returned for touchdowns.

He showed the ability to play both sides of the field as well as playing man coverage against the top wide receivers of opposing offenses. He also has a quick break on the football and reads quarterbacks really well."

 

[Mondio]

he intercepted Hornibrook, big whoop LOL. I think you're venturing into Carolina territory and you're better than that. you think jackson was a finished product playing zone and instinct football 1 year in college? They kid has a lot to learn about playing the position

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The fact that it looks worse when there are 4 UDFA's some signed last week on the field is your proof he's not good isn't exactly solid ground. Oh yeah, he didn't coach Rollins to the pro bowl after 1 good rookie year, and injury plagued year and then a torn achilles.

You know me better, I have never said he should be judged by what happens on the field when the Packers are forced into playing a bunch of backups. Look at the date I created the thread. My feelings aren't just based on one game, one guy and didn't just happen overnight. My opinion is based on Whitt's inability to get all of the talent he has been given to play consistently well. We have 3 DB's on the team with 3 total interceptions after 12 games, that is pathetic! Now I have someone say he hasn't been given any talent to work with? Give me a break.

 

[GleefulGary]

So let me ask you and other Whitt apologists. What makes Whitt a great coach? Give me some reasons and examples of what he has done that would make me believe he should be kept. If they only include the name Sam Shields and comments made by Charles Woodson, don't bother.

1) I'm not an apologist for Whitt. I just like accurate statements, and yours have not been.

2) I did not say Whitt was a great coach. Again, inaccuracy on your part.

3) I'm not capable of determining whether an NFL position coach is good or not. I do know he has a good reputation. I do know he's had more bad talent than good talent lately.

4) I've answered you, perhaps now you can finally direct me to the top talent drafted in the early rounds in the past 5 years and why it is Whitt's fault for not coaching them up. Thanks.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

1) I'm not an apologist for Whitt. I just like accurate statements, and yours have not been.

2) I did not say Whitt was a great coach. Again, inaccuracy on your part.

3) I'm not capable of determining whether an NFL position coach is good or not. I do know he has a good reputation. I do know he's had more bad talent than good talent lately.

4) I've answered you, perhaps now you can finally direct me to the top talent drafted in the early rounds in the past 5 years and why it is Whitt's fault for not coaching them up. Thanks.

Yup, lots of reasons for keeping Whitt as the secondary coach in your 4 points, thanks. My statements are made using opinion, mine. Calling them inaccurate is saying your opinion is the only accurate one?

So now he isn't a great coach (your words), so should we call him an "ok" coach? You are fine with "ok" coaches?

You say you are not capable of determining whether an NFL position coach is good or not, yet everything you are typing is saying that you have formed that opinion when it comes to Whitt.

As far as why Whitt hasn't coached up all of the high draft picks he has been given, isn't that the whole point of my argument?

 

[GleefulGary]

You know me better, I have never said he should be judged by what happens on the field when the Packers are forced into playing a bunch of backups. Look at the date I created the thread. My feelings aren't just based on one game, one guy and didn't just happen overnight. My opinion is based on Whitt's inability to get all of the talent he has been given to play consistently well. We have 3 DB's on the team with 3 total interceptions after 12 games, that is pathetic! Now I have someone say he hasn't been given any talent to work with? Give me a break.

Alexander has one o

Yup, lots of reasons for keeping Whitt as the secondary coach in your 4 points, thanks. My statements are made using opinion, mine. Calling them inaccurate is saying your opinion is the only accurate one?

So now he isn't a great coach (your words), so should we call him an "ok" coach? You are fine with "ok" coaches?

You say you are not capable of determining whether an NFL position coach is good or not, yet everything you are typing is saying that you have formed that opinion when it comes to Whitt.

As far as why Whitt hasn't coached up all of the high draft picks he has been given, isn't that the whole point of my argument?

I would say he's good. Better than ok, worse than great. But my opinion doesn't really matter.

I'll try again, since you haven't answered the previous times. Exactly who are these high draft picks in the past 5 years (that's your timeline btw), that he's supposed to have coached up but hasn't. Please and thank you.

 

[Half Empty]

I'll try again, since you haven't answered the previous times. Exactly who are these high draft picks in the past 5 years (that's your timeline btw), that he's supposed to have coached up but hasn't. Please and thank you.

I'm a little late to the party, so forgive me if misread this, but my answer would be

2014 - HaHa
2015 - Randall, Rollins
2017 - King, Jones
2018 - Alexander, Jackson

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm a little late to the party, so forgive me if misread this, but my answer would be

2014 - HaHa
2015 - Randall, Rollins
2017 - King, Jones
2018 - Alexander, Jackson

Thanks HRE, I intentionally avoided "the list" because is has been gone over so many times, with the same results each time. I really would love to see a spread sheet of some of the better secondaries and the draft resources spent to create that successful secondary. Just wild conjecture on my part, but I bet the draft resources spent were far less than that spent by the Packers to build what Whitt has been trotting out onto the field weekly. I guess we just blame this all on TT......"Great Job Joe, here is your Sam Shields Plaque!"

 

[Mondio]

I'm a little late to the party, so forgive me if misread this, but my answer would be

2014 - HaHa
2015 - Randall, Rollins
2017 - King, Jones
2018 - Alexander, Jackson

Darren Perry I think was safety coach I believe, not Whitt. and haha just didn't want to be here. Played when he wanted to

Randall was good when he was healthy. terrible attitude, but a good DB.
Rollins was good, then was hurt his 2nd year and in and out and playing with no practice, then tore an achilles
King is good when healthy, Jones was a safety and until this year not coached by Whitt
Alexander and jackson, both having nice rookie seasons.

 

[GleefulGary]

I'm a little late to the party, so forgive me if misread this, but my answer would be

2014 - HaHa
2015 - Randall, Rollins
2017 - King, Jones
2018 - Alexander, Jackson

Pokerbrat, you agreed with the post, so I'll respond.

HaHa is a safety, Whitt only coached home this year. Same with Josh Jones, who is basically a LB.

Randall was a safety playing at CB, and played average to above average there. Also had major attitude issues.

Rollins played one year of college ball, most thought coming out he would be best as a safety. Played well his rookie year, got hurt, and has been bad since. Nobody else thought he was good enough to sign until the Cardinals last week.

King has been injury prone, but showed real growth between year 1 and 2. Hard to complain there.

Alexander has been fantastic for a rookie. Clearly no credit to Whitt for that though.

Jackson has both struggled and flashed. One play against the Cardinals he almost had a pick 6, another he got grabby and got a PI.

I mean, if we're being honest, hasn't been a lot to work with until recently. But you want to put the safeties on him when he's been coaching them only this year... So you might just be biased.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

If Whitt had done his job, we would not have needed to draft Jackson and Alexander. Plain and simple.

 

[Poppa San]

Darren Perry I think was safety coach I believe, not Whitt. and haha just didn't want to be here. Played when he wanted to

For this season at least I believe the debate and credit is not flowing towards the correct staff members.

• Joe Whitt Jr. Defense - Pass Game Coordinator
• Jason Simmons Secondary
• Jerry Montgomery Defensive Line

 

[Mondio]

If Whitt had done his job, we would not have needed to draft Jackson and Alexander. Plain and simple.

you're right, because a guy should be in the pro bowl with a torn achilles LOL and i'm not sure how you field a secondary with players traded to other teams, but i'm pretty sure Drafting alexander and jackson had very little to do with who was the position coach previously. But thanks for playing LOL

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's a great debate and we can rehash things a 1000 more times and it still will just be everyone's individual opinion. I don't profess to know what goes on at practice or just how raw these guys were before coming the Packers. I guess the jury or at least the Packer organizations opinion will be in, when we see who is coaching the secondary next season.

 

[GleefulGary]

Thanks HRE, I intentionally avoided "the list" because is has been gone over so many times, with the same results each time. I really would love to see a spread sheet of some of the better secondaries and the draft resources spent to create that successful secondary. Just wild conjecture on my part, but I bet the draft resources spent were far less than that spent by the Packers to build what Whitt has been trotting out onto the field weekly. I guess we just blame this all on TT......"Great Job Joe, here is your Sam Shields Plaque!"

I'll detail other teams layer, but be assured that teams spend a lot of resources on CB.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

you're right, because a guy should be in the pro bowl with a torn achilles LOL and i'm not sure how you field a secondary with players traded to other teams, but i'm pretty sure Drafting alexander and jackson had very little to do with who was the position coach previously. But thanks for playing LOL

Thought about giving it a red X but that would be too kind. Post is full of this.

 

[Mondio]

Considering the head coach was just let go, it shouldn't be any surprise when the rest are let go when the new guy comes in.

 

[GleefulGary]

It's a great debate and we can rehash things a 1000 more times and it still will just be everyone's individual opinion. I don't profess to know what goes on at practice or just how raw these guys were before coming the Packers. I guess the jury or at least the Packer organizations opinion will be in, when we see who is coaching the secondary next season.

Lets be blunt.

There's a good reason you aren't going into specifics on players here. Just because somebody was drafted high and they don't turn out isn't always on the coach.

 

[Mondio]

Thought about giving it a red X but that would be too kind. Post is full of this.

of course, because i'm not sure you understand anything that's said. You fly around with your emotional rantings and red X's, give me more. I'll wear them proudly coming from you LOL

anyway, Rollins was coming off a torn Achilles, chances were very low he was going to be right physically. King just came off his 1st season in the nfl that he finished on IR and Randall was traded to the Browns because of his attitude. Pretty sure this team needed DB's even IF Randall was retained and King was not injured.

So what you find to be piles of ****, are actual truthful and useful information if you want to have a real opinion on the state of this football team or continue with your "method" of formulating opinions LOL

 

[Mondio]

and now King is 2 for 2 in finishing season on IR. Chances are we take another DB in the first 3 rounds next year and it has nothing to do with Whitt or whoever else they bring in next.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Lets be blunt.

There's a good reason you aren't going into specifics on players here. Just because somebody was drafted high and they don't turn out isn't always on the coach.

No and I will repeat, it is because we have covered the players you listed before, go back and start the thread over if you have to, I'm not rehashing. But is there a good reason why you can't name a player (besides Sam Shields) that has obviously been coached up by Whitt? Last Packer coached by Whitt to make the Pro Bowl (as a Packer)?

I look at what Eddie Jackson (4th rounder) is doing over in Chicago, Andrew Sendejo (UDFA) has done (before his injury) and on and on and where are these kind of guys in Green Bay? Who has stepped up their game? Should the loss of Morgan Burnett really impact the safety group as much as it did this year or was it the new secondary coach? Do the Packers just keep using 1st and 2nd round picks on the secondary until a few of them finally stay healthy and play well? Because by what I am hearing here, we shouldn't expect Joe Whitt to have any of the backups ready, because they suck to begin with.