Jerry Kramer, Dave Robinson, Bart Starr, and the HOF

[ivo610]

More than just Bart to NOT get voted in. Looks simple to me. I am in favor of ALL PACKER PLAYERS to be in the NFL HOF!!! G logo = GOD's TEAM!!!

Still don't see why you said the Taylor thing hasn't been put to rest, are you basing that off anything?

 

[Dan115]

Still don't see why you said the Taylor thing hasn't been put to rest, are you basing that off anything?

You need to read what he said about Jimmy and other teammates.

 

[Dan115]

Kramer is not going in this year. Hopefully he will before he dies. What else is there to be said?

 

[ivo610]

You need to read what he said about Jimmy and other teammates.

(facepalm)... Sigh... I have.

Jim and Jerry buried the issue years ago. You disagreed and said "apparently not", what do you base that off of? If you say 2 people still have the feud going I would like to hear what your basis of that is coming from

 

[Dan115]

Apparently not everyone has.

 

[DevilDon]

Where did I say he doesn't deserved to be in the HOF?

I don't get why people on the forum just make sh*t up to pick a fight.

You didn't say it, you imply it with continuing to offer negative views of him by players or voters. I'm not trying to pick a fight ivo. You'll know when I'm picking a fight, you've seen it.
What I don't get is why someone might start another post on this very subject that was discussed and put to bed some time ago. One might think the OP might be looking to pick a fight hey?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Bart might be biased toward Skoronski because he would have been more important to Bart's personal legacy as a passer instead of the field general (read: "system guy") who handed off the ball to Hall of Fame backs.

It also seems clear Bart did not approve of "Instant Replay". Kramer put an "I" in "team"...not a big deal in the free agent / endorsement / abysmal personal behavior era, but it is a big deal among the old timers. The book should be neither here nor there...but it's a factor and it is influencing the selection committee. Kramer's book also set the precedent for "tell all" books like "North Dallas Forty" and "The Dave Kopay Story" (not to mention "Ball Four" in baseball)...the intensity with which these books are hated by old time sports insiders cannot be underestimated.

Taylor may have similar issues, besides what he might have thought of the book. Just as a guy who is tagged a system QB could harbor long term resentments, Taylor may feel underappreciated as a "system fullback"...when folks talk about the "power sweep", it's always about the pulling guards making it go. Knowing that Taylor made the offense go in the early Championships, he'd be justified in some resentment. But that shouldn't be a factor in Kramer's selection.

With Robinson nominated, the "too many Packers" argument looks weaker. It must be the book and the missing endorsements from key teammates.

Forget for a minute the teammates and old timers who may or may not have an axe to grind. How about the defensive guys he played against?

HOFers Gino Marchetti, Alan Page, Chuck Bednarik, Bob Lilly, Doug Atkins and Bob St. Clair (who together spanned Kramer's entire career) have endorsed his inclusion in the Hall. That's some serious support.

Maybe the selection committee will wait until he dies, out of spite.

 

[ivo610]

You didn't say it, you imply it with continuing to offer negative views of him by players or voters. I'm not trying to pick a fight ivo. You'll know when I'm picking a fight, you've seen it.
What I don't get is why someone might start another post on this very subject that was discussed and put to bed some time ago. One might think the OP might be looking to pick a fight hey?

I must have missed the thread discussing Bart Starr not in favor of Kramer going to the Hall. I would love to see that thread

 

[HardRightEdge]

I must have missed the thread discussing Bart Starr not in favor of Kramer going to the Hall. I would love to see that thread

To quote Mr. Ivo610, "bangs head against wall...."

Read the first post in this thread. Starr endorsed Robinson, then touted Skoronski. Then see the last line...when asked if there were any others, he said "no". I don't think the implication could be clearer.

Starr touted Robinson for his "unselfishness and team-player aspect of the game...." Just one piece of evidence that the Kramer issue is an "Instant Replay" issue.

 

[ivo610]

To quote Mr. Ivo610, "bangs head against wall...."

Read the first post in this thread. Starr endorsed Robinson, then touted Skoronski. Then see the last line...when asked if there were any others, he said "no". I don't think the implication could be clearer.

Starr touted Robinson for his "unselfishness and team-player aspect of the game...." Just one piece of evidence that the Kramer issue is an "Instant Replay" issue.

Bangs head against wall.... Read who started this thread ...

Yes... I started this thread with the purpose of discussing that topic. Where else has it been discussed on the forum before? Bc according to others it has....

 

[HardRightEdge]

Bangs head against wall.... Read who started this thread ...

Yes... I started this thread with the purpose of discussing that topic. Where else has it been discussed on the forum before? Bc according to others it has....

Whoops...that was a double banger. I thought I was replying to somebody else who had not read your initial post! My bad. That's what comes of multitasking....

 

[ivo610]

Whoops...that was a double banger. I thought I was replying to somebody else who had not read your initial post! My bad. That's what comes of multitasking....

Lol it's ok. After I typed back I was starting to think that might have been the case as it didn't make much sense and you clicked "informative".

 

[kramerkid]

Hi all. I too was interested in the Peter King article. I have personal reason to wonder about it. As many of you know, I was involved in campaigning for dad's entrance into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I promised dad that I would let this go, but I am having a hard time turning it loose. But so did Peter King and I have to address that article.

I don't know what's going on. So I thought I would bring it to this forum. As some of you know, we received a number of letters from Pro Football Hall of Famers that supported dad: http://share.snacktools.com/AB795DF569B/fzjlg5l9 I had written Bart and did not hear from him. I thought Bart was just very busy. I didn't expect to hear from him right away. But to be honest, I wasn't sure if I would hear from Bart at all. This whole hall of fame selection business is political and some guys (hall of famers) just don't want to get involved. An example of one of those guys is **** Butkus, who sent his nomination through his attorney to the PFHOF. Anyway. If you followed me on twitter and facebook or heard me do an interview, I said a number of different times, that I did not have Bart's support. I said that because it was the truth. That was one thing I learned from my father, be honest, no matter how painful it might be, be honest.

Lots of people asked me, "where's Bart's nomination?" and I would simply say, "I don't know." I had heard from a couple of media people that Bart championed Bob Skoronski. I mentioned this to dad. Dad said that made sense. Bob had the best grades and I was okay with that. I had also found out that Willie Davis championed Dave Robinson. Again, I mentioned this to dad and dad was okay with that. Dave and Willie were on defense together. But then we received a nomination from Willie. That's when I learned that guys could support more than one player for nomination.

So time passed and then out of the clear blue sky one day, Bart called my campaign manager, Randy Simon. You can read about that conversation here:
http://idahobusinessreview.com/2012/07/18/undoing-an-idaho-football-snub/
I also talked with Bart later and he reiterated the same things he said to Randy. So I finally had Bart's nod and that was wonderful. It really gave me more traction in my campaign. I was on cloud nine. So the senior selection announcement rolls around and nothing happens. Dad is not selected. I could have been bitter and really popped off. Dad could have been bitter and popped off. But seconds after I had told my dad that he hadn't been selected and that Dave Robinson had, we both knew it was RIGHT thing to do by appreciating what God had given us in this bid for the hall and to champion dad's teammate. Dad and I both really think the world of Dave and would never want to take anything away from such a deserving person. I do not know Dave's stats or anything about him, other than I know the way he has treated me over the years and for me thats enough to support him and anything he is involved with.

After the nominees were read, Dad and I were ready to get out of dodge and go fish. We wanted to let things cool off. We wanted just to be quiet and not talk about the Pro Football Hall of Fame or the campaign anymore. And we did, but then I come home to the Peter King article. I thought it was interesting. Same stuff I have heard from him before. Nothing new, nothing enlightening. What I did find interesting was his conversation with Bart. Especially the last sentence in which Peter was clearly trying to make a statement.

Here you have me and Randy Simon, who both had conversation with Bart. My campaign manager Randy, busted his butt trying to work on this campaign. Really great guy that helped me through a lot of ups and downs with this campaign. And me, just some chick from Boise, Id who wanted to see her dad go into the Pro Football hall of Fame and started campaigning on facebook.

Then you have Bart Starr. One of the most humble people I know. One of the most giving people I know. He has been a friend of the family for a long time. We receive a Christmas cards from him and his wife, Cherry, every year. Dad plays in his Lombardi Golf tournament every year. I know Bart and he knows me. He acknowledges me every time I see him, even if he surrounded by hundreds of people . He always asks me about my brothers and my mother. I think I know Bart Starr quite well for not growing up with him. At least I think I do. And I believe that Packer nation knows Bart Starr to be same. Honest, caring and giving.

And then we have Peter King. I don't know Peter King. I didn't know of him till I started this campaign for my dad and learned that he was a voter for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I have never got to talk to him personally. I did receive a "tweet" from him in response to one of mine asking him what he needed to consider dad for the hall. I thought it was nice for him to answer me. And he did say that he "maybe" thought dad belonged in the hall. So I don't have anything bad to say about him.

So my question is this....what is the real truth? I know I am not lying and I don't think Bart Starr would fib me? I don't know Peter King well enough to say he is lying....but something isn't right here.....

I wrote Bart and an email the other day and shared the article with him. I am still waiting to hear back from him. I told him if he was uncomfortable addressing this, that he didn't have to respond. And I meant that. I believe Bart to be a classy guy who would not want to add any conflict (ie dad and the PFHOF) and all of this negative talk and detract from Dave Robinson. And I don't want to do that anymore. I'm tired of campaigning. Out of eighty candidates that were eligible to go before the senior selection committee, dad made top 15. Out of all the people I came across during this campaign, only a small percentage didn't support it. And most of the time it ended up being something personal. Most of the time people were saying something mean, instead of producing stats or figures that would lend to their argument. Only a few individuals had valid points and even then, they didn't say dad didn't belong or wasn't worthy.

I appreciate you letting me vent here. I really don't know what to think of the whole Peter King article. I am no Peter King. I don't have a column or a platform to speak from. I am a nobody compared to Peter King. So who's word will you believe? Probably not mine, but I just had to say something. To be honest, I am tired of the whole hall of fame talk. I wish it would just go away, but it won't. But I do know that dad and I have to move forward in our life and not dwell on this anymore. I do know that we support Dave and this is the last time I will talk about this, because we want to focus on Dave. I appreciate your personal feelings and opinions about dad, whether negative or positive. I am sure that they are justified in someway. But please, let me remind you, he is my dad. I love him and it hurts me to hear nasty things said about him. So I ask you, please be considerate and respectful towards me and my open letter to this forum. I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[kramerkid]

This is a letter from Art Daley. For those of you who don't know who Art is, here is some background:
"Art began covering the Green Bay Packers in 1942 and for more than 35 years, he covered the Packers beat for the Green Bay Press-Gazette. He teamed with Lee Remmel during many of those years.
An original member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee, Daley was the originator of the Green Bay Packers Yearbook in 1960. He was also a regular columnist in Ray Nitschke’s Packer Report."
This was a letter to dad, that I found while searching through the trunks of memorabilia. I have only shared this one other place, but thought that you might want to see.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[kramerkid]

And one last thing. The Pro Football Hall of Fame is/should be based on what a player did on the field. Not what he did off the field. Or else OJ Simpson should not still be in the hall.

 

[longtimefan]

Ty for posting your thoughts!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gwh11]

Hi all. I too was interested in the Peter King article. I have personal reason to wonder about it. As many of you know, I was involved in campaigning for dad's entrance into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I promised dad that I would let this go, but I am having a hard time turning it loose. But so did Peter King and I have to address that article.

I don't know what's going on. So I thought I would bring it to this forum. As some of you know, we received a number of letters from Pro Football Hall of Famers that supported dad: http://share.snacktools.com/AB795DF569B/fzjlg5l9 I had written Bart and did not hear from him. I thought Bart was just very busy. I didn't expect to hear from him right away. But to be honest, I wasn't sure if I would hear from Bart at all. This whole hall of fame selection business is political and some guys (hall of famers) just don't want to get involved. An example of one of those guys is **** Butkus, who sent his nomination through his attorney to the PFHOF. Anyway. If you followed me on twitter and facebook or heard me do an interview, I said a number of different times, that I did not have Bart's support. I said that because it was the truth. That was one thing I learned from my father, be honest, no matter how painful it might be, be honest.

Lots of people asked me, "where's Bart's nomination?" and I would simply say, "I don't know." I had heard from a couple of media people that Bart championed Bob Skoronski. I mentioned this to dad. Dad said that made sense. Bob had the best grades and I was okay with that. I had also found out that Willie Davis championed Dave Robinson. Again, I mentioned this to dad and dad was okay with that. Dave and Willie were on defense together. But then we received a nomination from Willie. That's when I learned that guys could support more than one player for nomination.

So time passed and then out of the clear blue sky one day, Bart called my campaign manager, Randy Simon. You can read about that conversation here:
http://idahobusinessreview.com/2012/07/18/undoing-an-idaho-football-snub/
I also talked with Bart later and he reiterated the same things he said to Randy. So I finally had Bart's nod and that was wonderful. It really gave me more traction in my campaign. I was on cloud nine. So the senior selection announcement rolls around and nothing happens. Dad is not selected. I could have been bitter and really popped off. Dad could have been bitter and popped off. But seconds after I had told my dad that he hadn't been selected and that Dave Robinson had, we both knew it was RIGHT thing to do by appreciating what God had given us in this bid for the hall and to champion dad's teammate. Dad and I both really think the world of Dave and would never want to take anything away from such a deserving person. I do not know Dave's stats or anything about him, other than I know the way he has treated me over the years and for me thats enough to support him and anything he is involved with.

After the nominees were read, Dad and I were ready to get out of dodge and go fish. We wanted to let things cool off. We wanted just to be quiet and not talk about the Pro Football Hall of Fame or the campaign anymore. And we did, but then I come home to the Peter King article. I thought it was interesting. Same stuff I have heard from him before. Nothing new, nothing enlightening. What I did find interesting was his conversation with Bart. Especially the last sentence in which Peter was clearly trying to make a statement.

Here you have me and Randy Simon, who both had conversation with Bart. My campaign manager Randy, busted his butt trying to work on this campaign. Really great guy that helped me through a lot of ups and downs with this campaign. And me, just some chick from Boise, Id who wanted to see her dad go into the Pro Football hall of Fame and started campaigning on facebook.

Then you have Bart Starr. One of the most humble people I know. One of the most giving people I know. He has been a friend of the family for a long time. We receive a Christmas cards from him and his wife, Cherry, every year. Dad plays in his Lombardi Golf tournament every year. I know Bart and he knows me. He acknowledges me every time I see him, even if he surrounded by hundreds of people . He always asks me about my brothers and my mother. I think I know Bart Starr quite well for not growing up with him. At least I think I do. And I believe that Packer nation knows Bart Starr to be same. Honest, caring and giving.

And then we have Peter King. I don't know Peter King. I didn't know of him till I started this campaign for my dad and learned that he was a voter for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I have never got to talk to him personally. I did receive a "tweet" from him in response to one of mine asking him what he needed to consider dad for the hall. I thought it was nice for him to answer me. And he did say that he "maybe" thought dad belonged in the hall. So I don't have anything bad to say about him.

So my question is this....what is the real truth? I know I am not lying and I don't think Bart Starr would fib me? I don't know Peter King well enough to say he is lying....but something isn't right here.....

I wrote Bart and an email the other day and shared the article with him. I am still waiting to hear back from him. I told him if he was uncomfortable addressing this, that he didn't have to respond. And I meant that. I believe Bart to be a classy guy who would not want to add any conflict (ie dad and the PFHOF) and all of this negative talk and detract from Dave Robinson. And I don't want to do that anymore. I'm tired of campaigning. Out of eighty candidates that were eligible to go before the senior selection committee, dad made top 15. Out of all the people I came across during this campaign, only a small percentage didn't support it. And most of the time it ended up being something personal. Most of the time people were saying something mean, instead of producing stats or figures that would lend to their argument. Only a few individuals had valid points and even then, they didn't say dad didn't belong or wasn't worthy.

I appreciate you letting me vent here. I really don't know what to think of the whole Peter King article. I am no Peter King. I don't have a column or a platform to speak from. I am a nobody compared to Peter King. So who's word will you believe? Probably not mine, but I just had to say something. To be honest, I am tired of the whole hall of fame talk. I wish it would just go away, but it won't. But I do know that dad and I have to move forward in our life and not dwell on this anymore. I do know that we support Dave and this is the last time I will talk about this, because we want to focus on Dave. I appreciate your personal feelings and opinions about dad, whether negative or positive. I am sure that they are justified in someway. But please, let me remind you, he is my dad. I love him and it hurts me to hear nasty things said about him. So I ask you, please be considerate and respectful towards me and my open letter to this forum. I sincerely appreciate it.

Irrespective of how strongly (or not) Bart feels about Jerry Kramer's place in Canton, I wonder if Jerry has been the victim of a numbers game among voters w/Dave Robinson, in that they have been "stealing" votes from each other in recent years. The hope now is that Robinson's ascent now frees up Kramer to some degree. There has also been some changes to the committee, and perhaps any old, undue bias (which may have had a role in the inexplicable 1997 snub) might be gone.

 

[TJV]

kramerkid (aka Alicia Kramer),

Thanks very much for contributing your point of view and for provided the information you have to this forum. I just glanced over the presentation (first link in her post) and will digest it fully when I have more time. I recommend it to others here. What I find most persuasive is the letters of recommendation from HOF'ers who actually played against your father. If I had a vote for the HOF, I would weigh those endorsements more heavily than those of his teammates. Even so, the sheer volume of recommendations is impressive.

I am happy to read that Starr has sent letters supporting your father to the selection committee, even if he thinks others, like Skoronski, are more deserving. I wouldn't read too much into the King column as I trust Starr's word more than King's and perhaps Bart just wanted to get off the phone. In my opinion, the "money quote" from that article which refutes King's own reasoning why your father shouldn't be in the HOF is this: "The fact that he was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team and then not to the Hall of Fame ... I have no explanation for something that happened in 1969, but it's obviously curious that many of the same voters who judged him one of the greatest linemen ever then didn't back him for the Hall of Fame." Yes, that's "curious" indeed.

Finally, as an old man myself allow me to convey this to you: Your love for, and devotion to your father has to mean much, much more to him than any accolades he could receive from any organization, including the Pro Football HOF.

Thanks again.

 

[JBlood]

Jerry Kramer belongs in the HOF. Life is unfair at times, but his disappointment is balanced by the love of a daughter. That's much more valuable.

 

[DevilDon]

I must have missed the thread discussing Bart Starr not in favor of Kramer going to the Hall. I would love to see that thread

Look Ivo. There was a time when I joined this board that I did the pin point arguments about details of what was said. I'm not doing that anymore. I've graduated from being an abrasive personality here to a reflective poster.
It's a great place to share information about the Packers and your passion for the team but more importantly it has become a place to enjoy others' thoughts on things. You might meet a fan or two at work but it's nowhere near as intense as it is in this forum. We are all Packer fans and I've come to understand that I can't possibly argue a position without seeing an opposite view. It just seems rude to question a young poster because they don't know the history of the team. I've been alive long enough that I'm an old hat about the team. It sure doesn't detract from any other poster even if it's the first time for a bandwagon fan.
Jerry Kramer should be a HOF enshrinee on so many levels that it kind of gets under my skin a bit. I know... I know... kinder gentler Devil but the fact remains that he has amazing stats and everybody knows it. It's not just the stats. It's that we all know that his book did it. And to be honest it is one of the greatest reads in the history of the game. That''s why he's not going and every single one of us know it. He took from the pockets from those media idiots. He LIVED the game and told about it.
It's exactly why I love the idea of Jerry Kramer for the HOF. He flew in the face of convention and did what was unthinkable. With today's media and "Hard Knocks" no corner of the NFL is left uncovered. It's just that Jerry had the "rounds" to do it back in the day. And hey, if you've never read the book you should because it's one of the best inside the NFL books ever. Many have done it since but nobody captures that one season better and it's a season well worth reliving.

 

[DevilDon]

And one last thing. The Pro Football Hall of Fame is/should be based on what a player did on the field. Not what he did off the field. Or else OJ Simpson should not still be in the hall.

Yep. I think your father exhibits what's best in all of us. He clearly had an impact on you. It seems that he recognizes that being a daddy is more important than any other thing he will do in his life.
In today's NFL where every previous player is scouted for his ability to color comment or announce games every NFL player should be bowing and recommending your father for his contribution to their retirement careers. I believe your father made it be known that football players were not just robots. They are intelligent guys who have some idea well and above what media guys think about the game.
I have a photo of the Lombardi Packers joking it up before the official team photo. I think it's rare. I treasure it because I recognize that those Supermen of my youth are just guys like the rest of us. Tell dad I gave him a thumbs up. Not just as a player but as a Dad.
Deion Sanders, Troy Aikman, Warren Sapp and Phil Simms should all walk a personally baked turkey to your Dad's doorstep every single Thanksgiving.

 

[HardRightEdge]

kramerkid (aka Alicia Kramer),

In my opinion, the "money quote" from that article which refutes King's own reasoning why your father shouldn't be in the HOF is this: "The fact that he was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team and then not to the Hall of Fame ... I have no explanation for something that happened in 1969, but it's obviously curious that many of the same voters who judged him one of the greatest linemen ever then didn't back him for the Hall of Fame." Yes, that's "curious" indeed.

Actually, the quote you say refutes King's reasoning is not a quote at all, at least as the piece is presented in the first post in this thread. That is King himself who is "curious", unless something was lost in translation to the forum. Yes, aren't we all curious.

Why would King not ask the obvious questions: "What did you think of 'Instant Replay" when it was written?" "Did you read it?" "Have you re-read it recently?" "What are your feelings about it today?" Sometimes the elephant in the room is too big to acknowledge?

Avoiding these questions might be a reluctance to stir a old pot. I think if these questions were put front and center on the table in front of key endorsers and voting members, and they were forced to reflect on old biases they might not have previously wanted to acknowledge, a few might rethink their position.

Some parties might have forgiven a little, forgotten a little, but maybe not enough.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Jerry Kramer belongs in the HOF. Life is unfair at times, but his disappointment is balanced by the love of a daughter. That's much more valuable.

That's a nice sentiment, but the question remains why he doesn't have both.

 

[TJV]

HardRightEdge, IMO King contradicted his own reasoning. First he said the reason Kramer doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF is because his contemporaries passed on him so many times. Here he notes his contemporaries judged him to be one of the greatest linemen ever. So he ‘has an explanation’ for the former but admits he has “no explanation for something that happened in 1969…”. That’s the contradiction as I see it: Both in King’s words.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not terribly strange. Personalities are what they are. I met Bart once... should have asked him. It seems Kramer rubbed alot of people the wrong way, writers not being exclusive to that bunch.
Be that as it may, he deserves the HOF. If you read his book you can see how players and press might not like his attitude. Problem is... just like in a forum it's sometimes hard to figure out someone's demeanor from a written word. Sometimes it's hard to see if he's being sarcastic or narcissistic. No matter, he was more than a guard, he was a kicker too, why are we beating this dead horse? If you can't see that he should be in the HOF it's incredible to me that you just don't let it die. I completely disagree with you and that's that.

You can pretty much forget the kicker thing. Kicking just doesn't count much for the HOF...there are no punters in the Hall (and nobody talks about Yale Larry or Ray Guy getting no props at all) and if I recall correctly Stenerud is the only place kicker in the Hall, and that's because he's credited with revolutionizing the position (and in turn offensive strategies) as much as for his numbers.

The only kicking exceptions I can think of that played into Hall selection would be Hornung (for contributing to his season points record which stood for 46 years) and Blanda (for contributing to his longevity). And to make matters worse, for old timers kicking isn't even football and kickers aren't football players. Maybe I should not have even said "old timers".

Somebody else mentioned Kramer's announcing career as something should be considered. Nope. There's a separate Hall for media.