I think David Harris Should Keep Wearing Green....

[Favre>Rodgers259]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/06/jets-to-cut-veteran-linebacker-david-harris/

Although the lack of depth is at OLB, any depth at the LB position, is a positive. If Perry goes down, Matthews can stay outside, and it's not as much pressure for Biegel, Fackrell, and Elliott to play on big downs. Plus from a leadership perspective I think he could teach Martinez, Ryan, and maybe even Perry a little something about playing the position. I think it's a win-win. There's not too many 3-4 teams looking for LB's this late in the game, I think TT could get a very team friendly deal.

 

[pizzle]

I like him-but I don't think we're gonna try to sign him. He's an inside backer in our scheme-we already have three young guys in Jake Ryan, Blake Martinez and Joe Thomas that we're high on-and we need a veteran outside backer.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/06/jets-to-cut-veteran-linebacker-david-harris/

Although the lack of depth is at OLB, any depth at the LB position, is a positive. If Perry goes down, Matthews can stay outside, and it's not as much pressure for Biegel, Fackrell, and Elliott to play on big downs. Plus from a leadership perspective I think he could teach Martinez, Ryan, and maybe even Perry a little something about playing the position. I think it's a win-win. There's not too many 3-4 teams looking for LB's this late in the game, I think TT could get a very team friendly deal.

Harris might present a decent option at inside linebacker capable of helping to develop Ryan, Martinez and Thomas.

As a side note, I would appreciate if posters would finally understand that Matthews isn't a great ILB by any means but average at best and moving him there wouldn't significantly improve the talent level at the position.

 

[pizzle]

Harris might present a decent option at inside linebacker capable of helping to develop Ryan, Martinez and Thomas.

As a side note, I would appreciate if posters would finally understand that Matthews isn't a great ILB by any means but average at best and moving him there wouldn't significantly improve the talent level at the position.

I can't speak for every poster on this forum, but at least for me, I think the issue that we probably are diametrically opposed on is the definition of "ILB"/role of a defender in a defense at any given time. Or in other words, why Clay at ILB is a good thing overall for the Packer defense vs Clay at ILB does not jibe with what you want a textbook ILB to do in a 3-4 defense.

Clay's weaknesses at ILB have been talked about at nauseum, so I'm not gonna fully rehash these points. The point I will emphasize is that Clay shoots the A gap with surgical precision mixed with hair-on-fire tenacity/explosion. It scares offensive lines/QBs/offensive coaching staffs, and is one of the few ways that CM3 still puts fear in opponents. If he can do the typical things that you need an ILB to do at an "average" level, then why not have him there in order to get the bonus of uncanny pass-rush ability at the position? To me, the trade-off makes a boatload of sense, not only in theory due to the ILBs we already have played over the years not being All-Pros but in application due to what we have already seen CM3 do when playing ILB.

You disagree. We get it, but I think that my points on why Clay moving inside permanently are valid for reasons I have brought up in the past and in this post. And I'd tend to believe that my sentiments are shared by many of the other posters who have also mentioned Clay as an inside linebacker, as well...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I can't speak for every poster on this forum, but at least for me, I think the issue that we probably are diametrically opposed on is the definition of "ILB"/role of a defender in a defense at any given time. Or in other words, why Clay at ILB is a good thing overall for the Packer defense vs Clay at ILB does not jibe with what you want a textbook ILB to do in a 3-4 defense.

Clay's weaknesses at ILB have been talked about at nauseum, so I'm not gonna fully rehash these points. The point I will emphasize is that Clay shoots the A gap with surgical precision mixed with hair-on-fire tenacity/explosion. It scares offensive lines/QBs/offensive coaching staffs, and is one of the few ways that CM3 still puts fear in opponents. If he can do the typical things that you need an ILB to do at an "average" level, then why not have him there in order to get the bonus of uncanny pass-rush ability at the position? To me, the trade-off makes a boatload of sense, not only in theory due to the ILBs we already have played over the years not being All-Pros but in application due to what we have already seen CM3 do when playing ILB.

You disagree. We get it, but I think that my points on why Clay moving inside permanently are valid for reasons I have brought up in the past and in this post. And I'd tend to believe that my sentiments are shared by many of the other posters who have also mentioned Clay as an inside linebacker, as well...

I'm fine with moving Clay around to rush the passer but for sure not to defend the run or drop into coverage.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I like him-but I don't think we're gonna try to sign him. He's an inside backer in our scheme-we already have three young guys in Jake Ryan, Blake Martinez and Joe Thomas that we're high on-and we need a veteran outside backer.

In my opinion, Jake Ryan is one more Draft Class away from being cut. I want Martinez to turn the corner but if not, he may be relegated to being a rotational player like Thomas. Harris could be a decent stopgap option until TT can figure it out.

Harris might present a decent option at inside linebacker capable of helping to develop Ryan, Martinez and Thomas.

As a side note, I would appreciate if posters would finally understand that Matthews isn't a great ILB by any means but average at best and moving him there wouldn't significantly improve the talent level at the position.

I'm fine with moving Clay around to rush the passer but for sure not to defend the run or drop into coverage.

I never said he was a great ILB, if he were he would have been drafted as such. However, if/when Perry goes down we know what's going to happen....outside of Fackrell and perhaps maybe Biegel having world beater pre-seasons, I have cause for concern.

We missed out on a good amount of decent ILBs this past off-season and our current cap number doesn't explain why at all....this isn't a "SB or Bust" transaction, but it could be one of those subtle moves that makes waves on its own.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

In my opinion, Jake Ryan is one more Draft Class away from being cut.

Absolutely disagree with that statement. Ryan performed at a decent level last year and was one of the best running stopping inside linebackers in the league.

However, if/when Perry goes down we know what's going to happen....outside of Fackrell and perhaps maybe Biegel having world beater pre-seasons, I have cause for concern.

It's true there's reason for concern about the lack if quality depth at outside linebacker but that has nothing to do with my suggestion to stop talking about moving Matthews inside.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I understand that Ryan was one of the most improved players of 2016 from his rookie season, but I don't think he's anything more than a stand-in, til a truly explosive player comes along. But I'd love for him to prove me wrong.

 

[Poppa San]

Lookee here maw!!
Another old vet I've heard of is getting let go and we now have a thread about how unca Ted just gotta sign him. As a stopgap nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I understand that Ryan was one of the most improved players of 2016 from his rookie season, but I don't think he's anything more than a stand-in, til a truly explosive player comes along. But I'd love for him to prove me wrong.

Ryan partly struggled in coverage last season but had the fifth highest run stop percentage of all inside linebackers in the league. There's no way the Packers are releasing him.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I'm with you on the stat, but keep in mind the NFL was having it's way with us when it came to the passing game, was he really that good, or were teams just abandoning the run in lieu of big chunks of yards through the air? If he can replicate that performance with hopefully an improved passing defense, I'll be convinced, but if he "falls off", I'm ready for TT to spend maybe a 2nd or 3rd Rounder next year on the position.

 

[thequick12]

Harris might present a decent option at inside linebacker capable of helping to develop Ryan, Martinez and Thomas.

As a side note, I would appreciate if posters would finally understand that Matthews isn't a great ILB by any means but average at best and moving him there wouldn't significantly improve the talent level at the position.[/QUOTE

matthews is absolutely a far more talented ilb than martinez, ryan, or thomas because of one reason matthews when healthy is a playmaker. thats sacks, forced fumbles, and interceptions something the other 3 have for the most part failed to produce. i get that ryan is better against the run as a traditional ilb but in 2 seasons he doesnt have a single int, sack, or forced fumble. in the 2 seasons matthews played the most ilb, 2014 and 15, he had 127 tackles, 17.5 sacks, 2 ints, 12 passes defensed, 2 forced fumble, and 1 fumble recovery. If you cut those numbers in half thats 63 tackles, 9 sacks, 1 int, 6 pd, 1 ff, and 1 fr. If the packers can get a season like that from any of the other canidates to play at ilb id say the defense would be a top 5 d

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm with you on the stat, but keep in mind the NFL was having it's way with us when it came to the passing game, was he really that good, or were teams just abandoning the run in lieu of big chunks of yards through the air? If he can replicate that performance with hopefully an improved passing defense, I'll be convinced, but if he "falls off", I'm ready for TT to spend maybe a 2nd or 3rd Rounder next year on the position.

The numbers I referred to where based on percentages among inside linebackers with at least 200 snaps against the run. Therefore it doesn't matter if opponents abandoned rushing the ball.

matthews is absolutely a far more talented ilb than martinez, ryan, or thomas because of one reason matthews when healthy is a playmaker. thats sacks, forced fumbles, and interceptions something the other 3 have for the most part failed to produce. i get that ryan is better against the run as a traditional ilb but in 2 seasons he doesnt have a single int, sack, or forced fumble. in the 2 seasons matthews played the most ilb, 2014 and 15, he had 127 tackles, 17.5 sacks, 2 ints, 12 passes defensed, 2 forced fumble, and 1 fumble recovery. If you cut those numbers in half thats 63 tackles, 9 sacks, 1 int, 6 pd, 1 ff, and 1 fr. If the packers can get a season like that from any of the other canidates to play at ilb id say the defense would be a top 5 d

Once again, there's absolutely no doubt that Matthews is significantly better rushing the passer from inside as Ryan, Martinez and Thomas but he doesn't excel in any other area required of an ILB.

It's tough to fairly analyze the numbers you presented as there's no way to figure out how many of those plays Clay made while lining up inside.

As a side note I highly doubt the Packers would be even close to fielding a top five defense by having any of the ILBs currently on the roster performing like Matthews did for 1 1/2 seasons.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

The numbers I referred to where based on percentages among inside linebackers with at least 200 snaps against the run. Therefore it doesn't matter if opponents abandoned rushing the ball.

Meh, fair enough; I just don't buy into that stat. 200 snaps against our defense, whether run or pass, can have very different implications then say against the Seahawks, Broncos, or Patriots defense. I will continue to view Ryan as an also-ran unless he can replicate that feat this year. Also keep in mind we played against the NFC East and the AFC South last season, with the highest powered offense coming from Dallas; the AFC North and NFC South won't be so docile, and we have our 3rd game with Dallas in 2 years, which I expect to be much more volatile with Dak and Zeke in their second years.

Other than the OL, if this team remains virtually the same like it did this year, where does TT invest his picks? Especially with that 3rd Round Compensatory selection, I have to imagine that pick those first 4 picks somehow involves one being invested on an ILB. Granted I'll admit I have done zero research on the upcoming draft class, what pressing needs would need to be addressed early? Jordy's future replacement at WR(if it isn't Dupre or GMo), bolstering the depth on the OL, and then what? Fackrell, Biegel, Jones, and King have to be given time to develop; and if Perry somehow finds himself on the shelf again after signing his big contract, something's going to need to be done. Say what you want, but at their current progression a starting lineup of Martinez and Ryan does cause concern, which is why Matthews keeps getting moved inside in the first place(and yes I acknowledge that he isn't amazing at ILB, but he makes more plays than the other two at that position). To bring the thread back on topic, either a FA acquisition such as Harris until those two come along, or an eventual high draft pick will be needed for continued and improved success. But again, I'll reserve the bulk of my opinion until maybe about midseason or the playoffs.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Meh, fair enough; I just don't buy into that stat. 200 snaps against our defense, whether run or pass, can have very different implications then say against the Seahawks, Broncos, or Patriots defense. I will continue to view Ryan as an also-ran unless he can replicate that feat this year. Also keep in mind we played against the NFC East and the AFC South last season, with the highest powered offense coming from Dallas; the AFC North and NFC South won't be so docile, and we have our 3rd game with Dallas in 2 years, which I expect to be much more volatile with Dak and Zeke in their second years.

Other than the OL, if this team remains virtually the same like it did this year, where does TT invest his picks? Especially with that 3rd Round Compensatory selection, I have to imagine that pick those first 4 picks somehow involves one being invested on an ILB. Granted I'll admit I have done zero research on the upcoming draft class, what pressing needs would need to be addressed early? Jordy's future replacement at WR(if it isn't Dupre or GMo), bolstering the depth on the OL, and then what? Fackrell, Biegel, Jones, and King have to be given time to develop; and if Perry somehow finds himself on the shelf again after signing his big contract, something's going to need to be done. Say what you want, but at their current progression a starting lineup of Martinez and Ryan does cause concern, which is why Matthews keeps getting moved inside in the first place(and yes I acknowledge that he isn't amazing at ILB, but he makes more plays than the other two at that position). To bring the thread back on topic, either a FA acquisition such as Harris until those two come along, or an eventual high draft pick will be needed for continued and improved success. But again, I'll reserve the bulk of my opinion until maybe about midseason or the playoffs.

I wouldn´t mind the Packers improving the talent level at inside linebacker but in my opinion suggesting that Ryan, who is currently the best one on the depth chart, being on the bubble is curious at best. As a side note, it´s way too early to discuss about the team´s needs entering into the 2018 draft as it´s impossible to predict how this season will play out.

 

[PikeBadger]

The team needs in the 2018 draft are likely to center around the positions played by starters whose contracts expire after the 2018 season.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Patriots signed Harris today, so I'm sure he'll get something to the tune of 11 sacks, 2 interceptions, 64 tackles (25 TFL).

 

[Ogsponge]

Patriots signed Harris today, so I'm sure he'll get something to the tune of 11 sacks, 2 interceptions, 64 tackles (25 TFL).

Stupid patriots, don't they know that draft and develop combined with blaming injuries for playoff futility is the only way to successfully run a football team?

Oh wait, I am being stupid, the Patriots consider cutting dead weight, using every available tool to improve the team and getting to and winning Super Bowls a success.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Stupid patriots, don't they know that draft and develop combined with blaming injuries for playoff futility is the only way to successfully run a football team?

Oh wait, I am being stupid, the Patriots consider cutting dead weight, using every available tool to improve the team and getting to and winning Super Bowls a success.

Hey we got "our guys" they are the best no need to look elsewhere.........

 

[Mike McCarthy]

FYI we have looked at the tape, learned a few things, cleaned up a few things, and will have the correct pad level this year, don't worry about the depth at lb fellas we got this!

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ar-patriots-contract-after-10-years-with-jets


"The deal has a base value of $5 million with $1.25 million guaranteed and can reach a total value of $6.75 million."

So basically, if he's a turd (like BB signs turds...) he gets the veteran minimum, but he breaks out and makes the Pro Bowl, he gets paid.

I'm going to be watching his stats very closely, and call for TT's resignation when Harris is a Pro Bowl alternate that we could've signed for probably $2.5M a season if we guaranteed some money.

 

[Mondio]

and if he and the patriots don't get it done you'll be back calling for your resignation right? LOL

and Thompson gets all sorts of crap for drafting Jerel Worthy, guess who picked him up next? or remember when they signed Adalius Thomas to a 35 billion dollar contract and had one decent season for them and 2 bad ones before being cut? They sign a lot, they get value a lot and miss more than a few.

 

[Ogsponge]

For the record I don't think signing this guy would have improved the packers, however the pats are a very proactive organization whereas the pack are a hope and a prayer organization because as long as we have Rodgers and the rest of the NFC north sucks, punching a ticket to the postseason is practically guaranteed.

I think the pack did a great job going and getting the TE's but the hope and a prayer aspect comes on hoping and praying that injuries were the cause of the cornerback futility and that the 2 rookies will significantly contribute to this years defense.

I along with most fans and the team are hoping and praying that all of that is true.

 

[Poppa San]

the rest of the NFC north sucks

In another thread earlier this year I punched a hole in that idea. Look for it if you want details but the crux is (from memory) the NFL North has sent 2 teams to the playoffs for like 8 of the past 9 seasons. No other division has done that. The second team besides GB has rotated about. Just because Brett and Aaron and associates have made *****es of the rest of the division doesn't mean the rest of the league has. Not like we have Cleveland or Buffalo to pencil 2 wins in against every season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

and if he and the patriots don't get it done you'll be back calling for your resignation right? LOL

and Thompson gets all sorts of crap for drafting Jerel Worthy, guess who picked him up next? or remember when they signed Adalius Thomas to a 35 billion dollar contract and had one decent season for them and 2 bad ones before being cut? They sign a lot, they get value a lot and miss more than a few.

It's true the Patriots have missed on a lot of players as well but there's no doubt they have been better than any other team in the league since Belichick took over, winning five Super Bowls.

Not like we have Cleveland or Buffalo to pencil 2 wins in against every season.

Well, last time the Packers played that terrible Bills team it cost them home field advantage for the 2014 NFCCG.