Gary's Role

[Pokerbrat2000]

If he plays OLB a full boat of snaps, then I'm assuming that means the Packers are paying Preston Smith all that money to sit on the bench?

Not really. You can't expect the Smiths to take 100% of the snaps, nor is there anything wrong with Gary being on the field at the same time as both of them, since it seems all 3 can be moved around quite a bit. I would love to have the issue of having 3 solid OLB's.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Not really. You can't expect the Smiths to take 100% of the snaps, nor is there anything wrong with Gary being on the field at the same time as both of them, since it seems all 3 can be moved around quite a bit. I would love to have the issue of having 3 solid OLB's.

Having 3 great OLBs is certainly better than having two, however it would mean that the Packers should probably have taken a different player with the 12th overall pick (e.g., Jeffrey Simmons). I'm not sitting here trying to claim that Gary turning into a great OLB would be bad; I'm trying to say that having 3 very good OLBs is not as helpful for the defense as having two great OLBs and two great dlinemen.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If he plays OLB a full boat of snaps, then I'm assuming that means the Packers are paying Preston Smith all that money to sit on the bench?

I said I was moving on, but since you persist, I'll take one more stab at it.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how edge players are used. Since you appear to have some kind of obsession with the 49ers, you might find this instructive, regardless of the fact they run a 4-3.

The 49ers had Armstead at DE going into last season's free agency period, a #17 pick in his 5th. season, a pretty good, versatile player, good enough that the 49ers exercised his 5th. year option. Then they signed Ford for the edge to a $16 mil/yr deal. All set? No, they took Bosa with the #2 pick. Redundancy? Lets look at the snap counts over their first 10 games before Ford was shelved with a hamstring.

Armstead: 74%
Bosa: 73%
Ford: 38%

Add those up and you get 185%. That means on average they didn't even have two of these guys on the field for 15% of the snaps! And it's not like the 49ers defense was playing a lot of high snap games where these guys had to take a lot of rest snaps. The total defensive snaps over those 10 games averaged 60 per game, below the league average.

Now, Ford came into the season with residual knee issues from the prior season. They kept his snap count down to a pass rush specialist count to save on wear and tear. The total snaps among these 3 players probably would have been higher if Ford were 100% because they like to move Armstead inside in nickel, just as we have been discussing with Z or perhaps eventually with Gary.

It's worth noting that with Ford on limited snaps they still kept their other two guys under 75% snaps. That's a prudent thing to do to keep those guys fresh.

There is no reason to think Smith/Smith/Gary couldn't each have 75% snaps, 225% total, or all 3 on the field for 25% of snaps on average. That's preferable.

The topic was redundancy. You are conflating redundancy with your dim view of Gary's potential. If he develops into a player, everybody gets the right amount of work. If he doesn't then he won't get the snaps.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I said was moving on, but since you persist, I'll take one more stab at it.

You have a fundamental misunderstand of how edge players are used. Since you appear to have some kind of obsession with the 49ers, you might find this instructive, regardless of the fact they run a 4-3.

The 49ers had Armstead at DE going into last season's free agency period, a #17 pick in his 5th. season, a pretty good vertile player, good enough that the 49ers exercised his 5th. year option. Then they signed Ford for the edge to a $16 mil/yr deal. All set? No, they took Bosa with the #2 pick. Redundancy? Lets look at the snap count over their first 10 games before Ford was shelved with a hamstring.

Armstead: 74%
Bosa: 73%
Ford: 38%

Add those up and you get 185%. That means on average they didn't even have two of these guys on the field for 15% of the snaps! And it's not like the 49er's defense was playing a lot of high snap games where these guys had to take a lot of rest snaps. The total defensive snaps over those 10 games averaged 60 per game, below the league average.

Now, Ford came into the season with residual knee issues from the prior season. They kept his snap count down to a pass rush specialist count to save on wear and tear. The total snaps among these 3 players probably would have been higher if Ford were 100% because they like to move Armstead inside on in nickel, just as we have been discussing with Z or perhaps eventually with Gary.

It's worth noting that with Ford on limited snaps they still kept their other two guys under 75% snaps. That's a prudent thing to do to keep those guys fresh.

There is no reason to think Smith/Smith/Gary couldn't each have 75% snaps, 225% total, or all 3 on the field for 25% of snaps on average. That's preferable.

The topic was redundancy. You are conflating redundancy with your dim view of Gary's potential. If he develops into a player, everybody gets the right amount of work. If he doesn't then he won't get the snaps.

Yes, the Packers can certainly turn the 12th overall pick into a player like Dee Ford, who played roughly 22 snaps a game. I just think that's not as helpful as seeing if he might be able to play 40-50 snaps at dline during a game. Why is that so problematic? Why are people so against seeing if a player can make an impact at other positions on the field to improve the defense on more snaps? The entire crux of my point is to see if Gary can play dline at a high level. If he can't then he stays at OLB and the team hasn't really lost anything, right?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Yes, the Packers can certainly turn the 12th overall pick into a player like Dee Ford, who played roughly 22 snaps a game. I just think that's not as helpful as seeing if he might be able to play 40-50 snaps at dline during a game. Why is that so problematic? Why are people so against seeing if a player can make an impact at other positions on the field to improve the defense on more snaps? The entire crux of my point is to see if Gary can play dline at a high level. If he can't then he stays at OLB and the team hasn't really lost anything, right?

I light of the facts and what I said, your comment on Ford is disingenuous.

This can't possibly be about redundancy. Is it that you think Gary sucks as an OLB? Is it panic over how the 49ers gouged this defense on the ground? I have to assume one or the other so since you cannot manage to wrap your head around how guys are used and their appropriate snap counts.

By the way, if you have not grasped it by now, a "full boat" of snaps for an edge player should be around 75% or even a bit less.

I'm driving to Florida tomorrow; I'll "see" you all on the flip side.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm driving to Florida tomorrow; I'll "see" you all on the flip side.

Be safe, don't put too many hours behind that wheel in a row, without a break.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Do you think the coaches are always right? Gary showed all year he was good against the run. He should have played more against SF.

Gary didn't receive enough snaps this season to make an educated guess on his performance defending the run. The coaching staff reducing his snap count to only three against the Niners with the unit struggling mightily is definitely an indicator on what they think about him though.

 

[Sky King]

Gary didn't receive enough snaps this season to make an educated guess on his performance defending the run. The coaching staff reducing his snap count to only three against the Niners with the unit struggling mightily is definitely an indicator on what they think about him though.

After the two embarrassing game-plan failures that this defensive coaching staff rolled out against the 49ers this past season, any judgments they make -- especially when it comes to players who would be effective at stopping the run -- should be highly suspect though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

After the two embarrassing game-plan failures that this defensive coaching staff rolled out against the 49ers this past season, any judgments they make -- especially when it comes to players who would be effective at stopping the run -- should be highly suspect though.

I mentioned this after the last game we played the 49'ers, both games totally reminded me of the way Capers and the Packers had absolutely no answer for Kaepernick. First, in 2012 when he destroyed them with his feet and the read-option in the playoffs. Then to open the 2013 season, he torched the Packer defense with his arm. Then in the Playoffs that same season, he combined his arm and his feet and again beat the Packers. I swear we made Kaepernick the great QB that he wasn't.

I wonder if Vegas has started taking money on the 2020 Meeting between the 2 teams?

I used to hate the Cowboys back in the 90's for seemingly just knowing how to beat the Packers every time the 2 teams played. Now that "hatred" has shifted fully to the 49'ers.

 

[Sky King]

I wonder if Vegas has started taking money on the 2020 Meeting between the 2 teams?

I live in Vegas and I would be glad to take your money.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I live in Vegas and I would be glad to take your money.

Given the scores of the last 2 games, give me the Packers and +24 and i will consider making the bet.

 

[Sky King]

Given the scores of the last 2 games, give me the Packers and +24 and i will consider making the bet.

I'll have ***** get in touch with you.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I live in Vegas and I would be glad to take your money.

I got married in Vegas 10 years ago..some friend you are !!

 

[Sky King]

I got married in Vegas 10 years ago..some friend you are !!

So, you're miserable like the rest of us "I Do's". Cry me a river.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I got married in Vegas 10 years ago..some friend you are !!

What does it cost to marry one of those Russian Brides in Vegas?