FO Needs to Stay Out of LaFluer's Way

[Ceodore]

If Pettine was an outright dope I would agree that MLF should be able to do what he wants. But it sounds like the players have his back and cutting him loose after only one year feels a bit shortsighted. If defense is still bad after this next season and MLF isn't feeling him, I absolutely think he should be able to let him go.

 

[AmishMafia]

rodell can't seem to understand that McDaniels clearly didn't make that much of an impression on the Packers' brass. He's just pissy because his emphatic proclamation that McDaniels would be the coach didn't come to fruition.

Trust me. If the Packers thought he was THE guy, they would have hired him. All of this nonsense about not being able to pick his own staff and such is insane.

I'm not going to go through his posts, but that isnt what I recall. I believe he posted he knew McDaniels family and McDaniels thought he was the leading candidate. Everything he posted could be and probably is true. I disagree with Rodell probably 95% of the time, but I dont recall him ever claiming inside info before. Everything he said strikes me as very credible.

 

[Dantés]

Why weren't the young pups ready to play? As my previous to PA12 contends, I dont think Capers developed talent. Those are all TT and company drafted players. Did our scouting department start evaluating players poorly? Or is it more likely that a coach who history of developing players is very spotty, is responsible? Neither of us knows for sure, but to me the evidence points to Capers more than TT.

I think Pettine did a pretty good job this year with what he was given to work with and yes, the injuries didn't help, but they are always going to be a part of the game and require a team to have to adapt and rely on its depth. IMO, the future success of the Packer defense is not just going to be the way Pettine schemes it, but the individual talent of the 23 or so guys that make up the defense. Having all those guys at their best and ready to play will only come about with good roster moves by Gute and assistant coaches who know how to coach and improve individual players.

I don't believe there's a team or roster in the league with the depth to withstand 8 starters out of a unit.

Injuries are part of the game of course, but healthier teams tend to do better and more injured teams tend to do worse. That's also part of the game.

The Bears, as a counter example, were very well coached on defense this year, but it absolutely made a huge difference that they had virtually zero major injuries.

 

[Mondio]

I don't doubt that Rodell's family may know him and his family. It's probably even McD's feeling or his friends feelings that the sticking point was staff and it could even be partially true. I just have a hard time thinking that if McD was clearly the guy they though could lead this team, he would have been chosen.

The rest of my comments on this thread are based on the fact that proclamations are made and the staff hasn't even been announced. Some think it's about agreeing with opinions, but there's a difference in saying Pettine was retained because the FO really wanted the continuity AFTER he's been named the DC, and saying the FO, more particularly Mark Murphy, needs to get out of MaLF's way 2 hours after his first official press conference and absolutely nobody has been named anything.

 

[PackAttack12]

I'm not going to go through his posts, but that isnt what I recall. I believe he posted he knew McDaniels family and McDaniels thought he was the leading candidate. Everything he posted could be and probably is true. I disagree with Rodell probably 95% of the time, but I dont recall him ever claiming inside info before. Everything he said strikes me as very credible.

Doesn't matter what he believed. He was wrong and now he's pissy about it.

I just refuse to believe that the Packers didn't hire the guy because he supposedly "couldn't hire his own staff". If McDaniels was a hit it out of the ball park candidate and such a no brainer for the Packers, why wouldn't the Packers trust him to hire his own people? I'm not buying it.

 

[Mondio]

There's no denying the pissy part of it LOL

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't believe there's a team or roster in the league with the depth to withstand 8 starters out of a unit.

Injuries are part of the game of course, but healthier teams tend to do better and more injured teams tend to do worse. That's also part of the game.

The Bears, as a counter example, were very well coached on defense this year, but it absolutely made a huge difference that they had virtually zero major injuries.

Again I understand this, but exactly when did the Packers loose all 8 starters? Some seem to be using that end of season stat to excuse poor defense, when in reality, we still weren't all that great when healthy. Sure, we saw what having a depleted defense can do against the Lions on 12/30. But we played the same Lions on 10/7, when we gave up the exact same number of points (31) and from my recollection, the defense was relatively healthy for that game and the one after it when the 49'ers put up 30 points. Week 2 Vikings put up 29. Week 3 Redskins 31.....Yes, injuries don't help, but even healthy, the Packers defense has a long way to go before being all that good.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Seems if I took anything away from the presser it was that MLF said he was starting going to work on assembling his staff, and he seemed to indicate he was analyzing who he wanted.

Imo, I think Gute is getting ready to open up the FA flood gates and start using his draft picks to unload talent into this roster. My biggest hope is that he cuts waste TEs off of this offense like Kendricks and Lewis, strikes gold with the pass rush in FA, drafts mostly OL and receivers but gives the D a ball hawk Safety or 2, people who are big upgrades over the lousy HHCD. We upgrade this safety and have a relatively healthy secondary, and that way if old Whitt gets held over he's out of his lame injury excuses.

 

[Mondio]

Kendricks and Lewis, neither one is under contract with the team. No cutting necessary.

 

[AmishMafia]

Doesn't matter what he believed. He was wrong and now he's pissy about it.

I just refuse to believe that the Packers didn't hire the guy because he supposedly "couldn't hire his own staff". If McDaniels was a hit it out of the ball park candidate and such a no brainer for the Packers, why wouldn't the Packers trust him to hire his own people? I'm not buying it.

Again, he never claimed to know what happened. He was only relaying what McDs family thought. Were they wrong? Yes! Was Rodell wrong about saying what McDs brothers thought? Probably not.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Kendricks and Lewis, neither one is under contract with the team. No cutting necessary.

I use it as a broad term to include no re-signing in the offseason.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Yes, because if years of excellence as a DC has taught us anything, it's that we should assume that Mike Pettine's defense in 2018 is all he's capable of.

Entirely different circumstances. Different roster, and he was under the wing of Rex Ryan, who undoubtedly had big involvement in the game planning. He's been on his own twice with poor results.

While bashing the talent, people overlook that we were #15 in yards allowed. We should have been around the same or better in points allowed. But we were poor in the red zone, which is 100% on coaching.

NE has proven for years that you don't need a great pass rush or a flashy, ball Hawking defense in order to keep points off of the board. You need a well-coached, disciplined team. Tennessee was of one the worst teams in the league to generate a pass rush without blitzing, yet they were the #3 scoring defense. There was not the slightest indication from Pettine that he can elevate the players that he's given.

 

[PackAttack12]

Again, he never claimed to know what happened. He was only relaying what McDs family thought. Were they wrong? Yes! Was Rodell wrong about saying what McDs brothers thought? Probably not.

Rodell doesn’t need you defending him. He’s already admitted that he was wrong. That’s all I need to know.

 

[Dantés]

Again I understand this, but exactly when did the Packers loose all 8 starters? Some seem to be using that end of season stat to excuse poor defense, when in reality, we still weren't all that great when healthy. Sure, we saw what having a depleted defense can do against the Lions on 12/30. But we played the same Lions on 10/7, when we gave up the exact same number of points (31) and from my recollection, the defense was relatively healthy for that game and the one after it when the 49'ers put up 30 points. Week 2 Vikings put up 29. Week 3 Redskins 31.....Yes, injuries don't help, but even healthy, the Packers defense has a long way to go before being all that good.

I agree, sure. And I think some of it must have to do with coaching (though that's hard to discern in specific terms when you're just watching from home), some to do with the level of talent on the team to start with, and some to do with the injuries.

But what I'm saying is that people tend to ignore injuries or completely blame them. They're a factor, and they aren't created equally for each team.

 

[rodell330]

rodell can't seem to understand that McDaniels clearly didn't make that much of an impression on the Packers' brass. He's just pissy because his emphatic proclamation that McDaniels would be the coach didn't come to fruition.

Trust me. If the Packers thought he was THE guy, they would have hired him. All of this nonsense about not being able to pick his own staff and such is insane.

You know nothing, John Snow.

 

[rodell330]

Rodell doesn’t need you defending him. He’s already admitted that he was wrong. That’s all I need to know.

Well then why do you keep mentioning McDaniels then? If you know? I know why he wasn’t hired..I KNOW one of the topics mentioned was the vision for the coaching staff... and believe me, IDC who believes it or not. Maybe Lafleur will turn out to be exactly what we needed? Maybe he won’t? Who knows??! But what I do know is if this thing gets ugly it’s foing to turn sideways in GB real quickly...and then we may hear more “stories” about why Lafleur was chosen over McDaniels...and that won’t even be from me. I’m just going to sit back and let the season play out and just like you guys, I hope we win games and get to the SB every year. But Lafleur was not more qualified for the job than McDaniels just stop it.

 

[Dantés]

Entirely different circumstances. Different roster, and he was under the wing of Rex Ryan, who undoubtedly had big involvement in the game planning. He's been on his own twice with poor results.

While bashing the talent, people overlook that we were #15 in yards allowed. We should have been around the same or better in points allowed. But we were poor in the red zone, which is 100% on coaching.

NE has proven for years that you don't need a great pass rush or a flashy, ball Hawking defense in order to keep points off of the board. You need a well-coached, disciplined team. Tennessee was of one the worst teams in the league to generate a pass rush without blitzing, yet they were the #3 scoring defense. There was not the slightest indication from Pettine that he can elevate the players that he's given.

Pettine's defense in 2013, in Buffalo, was 4th in DVOA without Rex Ryan. His first year in Cleveland was also pretty good (12th), though things fell apart in 2015.

I'm not "bashing talent." I'm merely saying that its equal in importance to coaching.

 

[HardRightEdge]

any body gotta link that says Murphy is calling the shots? anybody? I mean last year, Ted was still calling the shots, or so we heard from numerous guys on here. Not Gute, Not Murphy, Ted. Gute was the yes man. Then of course FA started and there were fewer and fewer of those guys. But as soon as Gute was hired, it was almost comical some of the conspiracy stuff that was come up with on here. Murphy was too busy trying to make money and not involved in the team aspect enough. If I cared to, I could go back and find enough posts to fill a page. Then it was M.Murphy needed to step in and reign in Ted, cut him loose, fire some coaches and make the head coach make some staffing changes. But he cared morto e about Titletown District than the team. Now the president, GM and Russ Ball go thru the process of finding a new HC that hasn't even named a staff yet, and you guys have Murphy pegged again LOL

Does anybody ever just **** and see what actually transpires before forming opinions, let along strong ones?

You mixed together the various assessments of various people as though it was one waffling, consensus voice. Which of those, in retrospect, appear correct? Here's the picture I painted:

1) The reporting relationship, with Gutekunst, Ball and McCarthy all reporting to Murphy, was a clear indication that Murphy would be more hands on. The reasons for that were multiple:

• Either on his own initiative or under pressure from the Executive Committee or by consensus, after the 2017 mess it was decided the football operation was slipping, Rodgers injury notwithstanding.
• This is a business. Mark Murphy has an MBA in finance. He is first and foremost a businessman. It's common in business for an executive to get more hands-on when things are not going swimmingly in order to figure out where the the problems lie.
• The Rodgers contract negotiation was above everybody else's pay grade, with the consequences being far reaching.
• With facilties upgrades and Titletown District development mostly in the rear view mirror, he had the time to devote to the football operation. It could be argued he was unduly neglectful previously in attending to business matters. Or one might say if you make the playoffs it's an "if ain't broke don't fix it" situation. Regardless, by the end of 2017 it was pretty clear some some stuff was broken. Which stuff? Gotta find out now.
• Murphy's role in the football operation is what I came to call uber-GM.

2) It looked to me from the get go that Thompson was relegated to "GM Emeritus" status for consultation during the transition. That looks right. Some wanted to attribute that to health issues whereby his load would be lightened but he'd still be pulling the strings. Others pointed to his sub-standard drafts as having reached a tipping point. That latter point could not be ignored. In the final analysis, he had an office, he was writing scouting reports, he was in the draft room. How seriously his opinions were taken is debateable, but it's clear to me he was not the "decider". Another report had him returning to Texas in November, which is telling, supposedly doing some scouting work from home. For all we know he may still be on the payroll for 2019 working off his contract. He's still listed as "Senior Advisor to Football Operations". His future presence in the building going foward, if at all, isn't going any further than pop-ins. I saw, and see, no reason to believe his presence was or will be anything but peripheral. Or maybe he gets hired to do something elsewhere. Regardless, the day Gutekunst was hired was the day his influence was marginalized. And that is not 20/20 hindsight.

3) It was my assessment that this reporting relationship, along with McCarthy getting a contract extension through 2019, was an indication he'd have more say in personnel. The degree to which McCarthy had input into decisions is hard to assess, but given the reporting relationship and with a rookie GM, I'd be pretty confident in saying it was more than before.

4) Capers was fired. Gutekunst wasn't promoted yet and was still interviewing elsewhere, Houston in particular. Capers firing could have gone a couple of ways:

• McCarthy says to Murphy, "It's time to move on," and Murphy agrees.
• Murphy says to McCarthy, "It's time to move on" and McCarthy agrees.

Either way, with Murphy getting down in the weeds, the idea that McCarthy just picked up the phone and told Capers, "thanks for your service," is highly implausible.

Even before these developments, the notion of Chinese walls whereby the GM unilaterally hires and fires the head coach and defines roster needs with complete control over personnel and selects the personnel, and the head coach unilaterally hires and fires the assistaants is quaint. It's an easy to digest picture for public consumption. There are inevitably shade of gray. It just happens to grayer with Thompson's moved aside, and it remains so.

 

[rodell330]

Pettine's defense in 2013, in Buffalo, was 4th in DVOA without Rex Ryan. His first year in Cleveland was also pretty good (12th), though things fell apart in 2015.

I'm not "bashing talent." I'm merely saying that its equal in importance to coaching.

No you’re exactly right. There are several players who played a lot of defense this year who don’t fit Petines Scheme. We have to keep in mind that Pettine had Darelle Reevis...idc who you are if you’re a DC and you can eliminate half of the field I guarantee you that you’ll have a top defense. In Cleveland they had a dominant defensive line with nice rotational pieces. If Alexander can turn into the next great shutdown corner then this defense will get better. But they need to fix more than a couple holes on defense first.

 

[Dantés]

No you’re exactly right. There are several players who played a lot of defense this year who don’t fit Petines Scheme. We have to keep in mind that Pettine had Darelle Reevis...idc who you are if you’re a DC and you can eliminate half of the field I guarantee you that you’ll have a top defense. In Cleveland they had a dominant defensive line with nice rotational pieces. If Alexander can turn into the next great shutdown corner then this defense will get better. But they need to fix more than a couple holes on defense first.

Agree. And it's fair to say that Pettine and his staff need to a better job as well. Both are true.

This is as opposed to "he's amazing but he has no talent" or "the talent is all there; he's a bum."

 

[PackAttack12]

Well then why do you keep mentioning McDaniels then? If you know? I know why he wasn’t hired..I KNOW one of the topics mentioned was the vision for the coaching staff... and believe me, IDC who believes it or not. Maybe Lafleur will turn out to be exactly what we needed? Maybe he won’t? Who knows??! But what I do know is if this thing gets ugly it’s foing to turn sideways in GB real quickly...and then we may hear more “stories” about why Lafleur was chosen over McDaniels...and that won’t even be from me. I’m just going to sit back and let the season play out and just like you guys, I hope we win games and get to the SB every year. But Lafleur was not more qualified for the job than McDaniels just stop it.

Whatever. This is my last post regarding you and your buddy McDaniels. You clearly put a lot of merit into McDaniels version of the story. And I clearly don't believe a single word that comes out of his mouth. He doesn't exactly have a track record of trustworthiness.

We'll leave it at that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree, sure. And I think some of it must have to do with coaching (though that's hard to discern in specific terms when you're just watching from home), some to do with the level of talent on the team to start with, and some to do with the injuries.

But what I'm saying is that people tend to ignore injuries or completely blame them. They're a factor, and they aren't created equally for each team.

Most definitely injuries, coaching and level of talent all play a factor in it. I also acknowledge that it is hard to coach up a player that is getting injured all the time like Kevin King. Maybe had the Packers defense stayed more healthy during the season, we would have seen a bigger improvement than we did, I can't dispute that. But a few of the players that did stay healthy, didn't really show much improvement. So what continues to give me pause is with the amount of draft capital invested in the defense over the last 7 drafts, we should be a whole lot better than we have been. Even this upcoming draft looks like its going to again have to concentrate heavily on the defense. Sure, the failures of all that draft capital can be blamed on TT and bad evaluations, but I think when you mix in the fact that some of those players have left Green Bay and played better, coaching is still a big factor.

We can only hope Pettine is the guy and he along with LeFleur, are able to put together a solid bunch of assistants, because IMO, that is going to be the key to really improving our D.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

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[Cheese Headed Monster]

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Is this real lol? As in they actually had that on the TV?

 

[AmishMafia]

There are several players who played a lot of defense this year who don’t fit Petines Scheme.

Excellent point. Wish I had included in my list on page 2 of reasons the defense underachieved.