Charles Woodson and Wis. Protesters

[LombardiChick]

not everyone works on the weekend....

If its during the week most of them are college kids that I have seen on the news/facebook/random pics.

Not to say there arent people that shouldnt be taking off of work but to group everyone as unemployed is ignorant.

I took YoKramer's comment as an off-the-cuff quip. I don't think he was serious (particularly since most of the people there have jobs, for now).

 

[PackersPete]

A lot of people are saying that pro-laborers should just live with the 2010 election results. I can't help but cringe when I hear that because when you look at Scott Walker's Educational Platform that he used during the campaign, you'll see no mention about altering collective bargaining, pensions, 401ks, workers rights, class sizes, working conditions, etc... only buzz words like "STEM" and "Recruit, Retain and Reward" are used (i.e. he generally ran a neutral education campaign from what I can see). If I was a Wisconsin voter, I'd feel pretty jaded about this apparent bait and switch. Even on his website, under the heading of "REFORM" he doesn't talk about education reform, he talks about how he wants to "Restore Wisconsin’s reputation for clean and honest government" I am laughing with a chicken sandwich in my mouth.

We know that Wisconsin is broke. Money too tight to negotiate. So why weren't police and firefighters union rights affected whatsoever? Unsurprisingly, Walker accepted campaign funds from both these groups. Does anyone think that there is truly a "public safety" issue that Walker was afraid of? If so, wouldn't that apply to the nurses union as well who got hit hard? Someone from Wisconsin who is informed, I'm all ears because I (an many other interested ppl from out of state) truly am interested in an objective answer to this question. I guess the larger question is..to all you self proclaimed economics experts, is this even a fiscal issue? After all, the teachers offered up all the budget, wage, and benefit cuts; forfeiting $300 M over three years alone.

So all political trash talking aside, whats the deal with leaving police and firefighters out of this?

You go up to one of our "heroes" and tell him or her that they're not worth the money we pay them. Personally, I think ALL public employees are overpaid but facts are facts-Police save your *** on the street, Firefighters protect your **** when your dumb *** leaves the oven on and our teachers are producing complete retards upon graduation. Teachers are the victims of the thinning of the herd.

Also, LombardiChick did her homework and posted proof that only a small handful of police and fire departments donated to Walker's campaign. Walker is smart. He's picked this battle wisely and I hope he wins.

 

[SpartaChris]

Thanks to you and fettpett for correcting that myth - it's very widespread so I easily can see why people believe and repeat it - the news media, which had easy access to the truth, ran all sorts of speculative stories about it, but Walker only got a small handful of those endorsements. I posted about it too, but I think it was on the other thread about all this.

I have no problem listening to that side of the story, but I'd like the truth from the media. Maybe I'm asking too much. LOL

Facts? From the liberal propaganda machine known as the media? Surely you jest!

 

[SpartaChris]

He's picked this battle wisely and I hope he wins.

I absolutely love that it's spurred other states to take action on busting up their public worker unions as well. I can only dream of that happening here in Kalifornia.

 

[ivo610]

Facts? From the liberal propaganda machine known as the media? Surely you jest!

I get the feeling you spend alot of time in the no spin zone.

 

[PackersPete]

The 100 Best Protest Signs At The Wisconsin Capitol: Pics, Videos, Links, News

Those signs were lame. I saw one the other night where the signwriter actually put F_ _ _ on it! Really? You're out protesting and you worry about offensive language? That alone sums up the testiculat fortitude of Liberal sissies...

 

[ivo610]

Those signs were lame. I saw one the other night where the signwriter actually put F_ _ _ on it! Really? You're out protesting and you worry about offensive language? That alone sums up the testiculat fortitude of Liberal sissies...

with the amount of children there (its own issue) people should avoid things like this. Actually they should be ticketed for signs like this in public.

 

[SpartaChris]

I get the feeling you spend alot of time in the no spin zone.

Nope. I don't watch Fox, I don't listen to Rush, don't worship Sarah palin and think Glen Beck is an extremist.

But so are Bill Maher, Jeanine Garafalo and Keith Olbermann.

I also think anyone with half a brain and figure out which way the bulk of the media tends to lean.

I also gotta believe that if one single network, Fox, is pissing off so many people, they've got to be doing something right.

 

[PackersPete]

with the amount of children there (its own issue) people should avoid things like this. Actually they should be ticketed for signs like this in public.

So you believe in free speech for Liberals only then? Kids had no reason to be there. I'm with George Carlin when he says, "**** the children!"

 

[ivo610]

Nope. I don't watch Fox, I don't listen to Rush, don't worship Sarah palin and think Glen Beck is an extremist.

But so is Bill Maher, Jeanine Garafalo and Keith Olbermann.

I also think anyone with half a brain and figure out which way the bulk of the media tends to lean.

I also gotta believe that if one single network, Fox, is pissing off so many people, they've got to be doing something right.

I wont watch Beck, olbermann (anymore), or listen to Rush. But I do watch foxnews, Bill O'Reilly, Maher, Maddow, bbc news, and anderson cooper. I enjoy all of them for various reasons.

 

[LombardiChick]

I get the feeling you spend alot of time in the no spin zone.

Could be worse. He could be getting it from one of the hysterical clowns on MSNBC. :razz: :wink:

Seriously, I personally cannot stand Bill O'Reilly, but it seems pretty clear to me that SpartaChris is every bit as well informed as anyone else involved in this discussion. I've honestly been enjoying everyone's posts, and that's rare in a political discussion. People on both sides are staying civil, and that's an accomplishment in itself.

 

[JBlood]

There are lots of smart people on either side of any debate. It all comes down to the Golden Rule.

 

[ivo610]

So you believe in free speech for Liberals only then? Kids had no reason to be there. I'm with George Carlin when he says, "**** the children!"

? where did I say that? Are you trying to start a fight or something? I clearly didnt say any of that.

 

[SpartaChris]

There are lots of smart people on either side of any debate. It all comes down to the Golden Rule.

"Screw unto others before they can screw unto you."

 

[TJV]

As a Wisconsin resident I find this an interesting and civil discussion - I very much appreciate that and I think it speaks highly of this forum. From the coverage of this story I think an important aspect of Walker’s plan is being under-reported. The reason Walker wants to eliminate collective bargaining with regard to pension benefits and health insurance premiums is in order to balance the budget he will have to make significant cuts in revenue sharing the state sends to counties and municipalities. He wants to give those local governments the ability to sustain those cuts without raising local taxes by reducing their pension and health insurance costs in a comparable way.

But what about removing public employee unions’ ability to collectively bargain on everything except wages? Isn’t that a “right”? No, it isn’t: Approximately 24 states don’t allow collective bargaining by state employees. Although civil service protections were introduced in Wisconsin in 1901, collective bargaining was introduced in the 1940s. Even liberal icon FDR was against providing government employees with collective bargaining rights.

As a Wisconsin taxpayer here is the point of view from which I look at this situation: Currently we taxpayers are paying both the employee and employer portion of state employees pension plan. That amounts to 11.6% of each employee’s compensation. (BTW, unlike some state pension plans, Wisconsin's is fully funded.) Walker is asking employees to pay one-half of that amount. Currently we taxpayers are paying about 93.7% of state employees’ health insurance premiums. Walker is proposing to decrease our contribution to 87.4%.

I live in the stateline area of Rock county. I know two teachers in the public school system (their compensation is listed on a website I can't link because this is my first post here). One teaches high school and according to the website, his salary is about $57,500. His fringe benefits are worth $40,600. The other teaches grade school. Her salary is $51,900 and her fringe benefits are worth $35,000. Of course both have the summer off. Each is an outstanding person and I’ll bet each is an excellent teacher but I have no problem whatever in requiring each to pay more for their rich benefit packages.

I chose decades ago to start my own business. (Yes, I'm old.) I pay 100% of my retirement fund contribution and 100% of my health insurance premium. I also have the privilege of paying self-employment tax so instead of having 6.75% deducted from my salary as an employee, I pay 13.5% in social security and medicare premiums (although part of that is tax-advantaged) in addition to Wisconsin and Federal income taxes.

When I graduated high school I had a choice of pursuing public employment which provided almost absolute job security and good benefits or pursuing private employment which provided almost no job security (if non-union) but greater compensation. Today that situation is upside down. The average public employee enjoys great job security, great benefits and makes more money than the average private employee. We can’t correct this overnight but that situation has to change.

 

[LombardiChick]

I wonder why no one has proposed just giving them much less comprehensive insurance plans that don't pay for things like ******. :smile:

ThxJack, I no longer live in Wisconsin, but I am self-employed, I pay 100% of my health insurance, and my retirement is 100% my responsibility. It is murder. I've had to go to gradually higher deductible plans several times now, even though I have barely needed to take advantage of my insurance at all (I am generally very healthy).

I'm finding it pretty much impossible to feel sympathy for people who are squealing like banshees over having to pay a tiny fraction of these things.

In addition to paying for those things, I feel like I'm taxed to death. I pay high property tax, and ten cents on a dollar in sales tax in my state. I am one of those Americans who has to pay federal income tax. (Many don't.)

And I'm actually one of the fortunate ones, compared to other musicians I know.

These teachers, I think, are playing chicken with someone who isn't going to blink. Next stop, layoffs. They can't say he didn't warn them.

 

[PackersPete]

? where did I say that? Are you trying to start a fight or something? I clearly didnt say any of that.

It's a known fact that Liberals love free speech only when they agree with it. The signs seen at the protests with Scott Walker's face in crosshairs with the words "Die Walker Die!" after all the **** they talked about Palin and toning down the political rhetoric after Giffords was shot in AZ just proves my point.

Bottom line? Children didn't belong at those protests in any capacity. Teachers used their students as political pawns. Which brings me full circle to my other point. The sign I saw the other night that had F _ _ _ on it further proves that Liberals are a bunch of sissies. If you're going to talk ****, then talk ******' ****. Don't hide behind your convictions. In other words, if you're going to look like a Liberal *********, just stay home. You're making your cause look bad.

 

[ivo610]

It's a known fact that Liberals love free speech only when they agree with it. The signs seen at the protests with Scott Walker's face in crosshairs with the words "Die Walker Die!" after all the **** they talked about Palin and toning down the political rhetoric after Giffords was shot in AZ just proves my point.

Bottom line? Children didn't belong at those protests in any capacity. Teachers used their students as political pawns. Which brings me full circle to my other point. The sign I saw the other night that had F _ _ _ on it further proves that Liberals are a bunch of sissies. If you're going to talk ****, then talk ******' ****. Don't hide behind your convictions. In other words, if you're going to look like a Liberal *********, just stay home. You're making your cause look bad.

again where did I say free speech only for Liberals? I dont even know where you got that.

half of what you just typed made sense the other half seemed like an angry rant.

Have you been to the protest? If not I promise you its nothing like Fox news has been portraying it.

 

[ivo610]

I dont feel that children should be taken to a rally by parents as I dont feel people should push political beliefs on kids. I was sickened when I saw children carrying signs and even more so when I saw a kid in a stroller chanting. This is not from one party or another as both do it, but in this case it was more so pro union as its mostly a pro union crowd.

Couldnt stand the ****** sign that I saw. People that compare anyone in American politics to ****** have no grasp on reality as you cant compare the two. Its disgusting to even think that people could draw comparisons to someone who committed genocide. Also I get annoyed at any comparison to what is going on in the middle east. Madison is having peaceful protests while they are killing protesters in the middle east.

What I did like was the peaceful protesters. Never saw anyone flip out of get aggressive. Everyone was calm and orderly on both sides. Never heard of anyone getting upset about the line into the capital or the no sticks inside rule. Because its madison it got a little borderline weird at times though as I saw people in costumes and families in favre jerseys.

My friend was the muscle of the police department on sat and he drove over from milwaukee and was told to bring full riot gear. Never needed it and they realized that right away and dumped it all.

 

[Wood Chipper]

we should lay off the politics

 

[LombardiChick]

It's a known fact that Liberals love free speech only when they agree with it. The signs seen at the protests with Scott Walker's face in crosshairs with the words "Die Walker Die!" after all the **** they talked about Palin and toning down the political rhetoric after Giffords was shot in AZ just proves my point.

Crosshairs and ****** are fair game, but only if you are on the left side of the political spectrum.

Duh. :wink:

Seriously...it is funny how the mainstream media just isn't noticing this stuff all of a sudden, and how quiet Obama and Pelosi have been about civility. Very predictable, though. Some things, you can just count on.

 

[LombardiChick]

I dont feel that children should be taken to a rally by parents as I dont feel people should push political beliefs on kids. I was sickened when I saw children carrying signs and even more so when I saw a kid in a stroller chanting. This is not from one party or another as both do it, but in this case it was more so pro union as its mostly a pro union crowd.

Couldnt stand the ****** sign that I saw. People that compare anyone in American politics to ****** have no grasp on reality as you cant compare the two. Its disgusting to even think that people could draw comparisons to someone who committed genocide. Also I get annoyed at any comparison to what is going on in the middle east. Madison is having peaceful protests while they are killing protesters in the middle east.

What I did like was the peaceful protesters. Never saw anyone flip out of get aggressive. Everyone was calm and orderly on both sides. Never heard of anyone getting upset about the line into the capital or the no sticks inside rule. Because its madison it got a little borderline weird at times though as I saw people in costumes and families in favre jerseys.

My friend was the muscle of the police department on sat and he drove over from milwaukee and was told to bring full riot gear. Never needed it and they realized that right away and dumped it all.

Bravo to the bolded paragraph, ivo. On the peacefulness of it - I believe there were nine arrests one day, with a broken window inside somewhere...didn't hear about anything else, though.

 

[PackersPete]

with the amount of children there (its own issue) people should avoid things like this. Actually they should be ticketed for signs like this in public.

Hmmmm.....I wonder where I got the fact that ivo610 comes off as being a tad hypocritical....

Could it be the part where he says, "with the amount of children there (its own issue) people should avoid things like this." OR should we go for door # 2 Monty, where he says, "Actually they should be ticketed for signs like this in public."

Ticketed? Really? For free speech? I wonder where I got that notion from....

 

[PackersPete]

we should lay off the politics

No. You should avoid this subject if you don't like what's being said.

 

[ivo610]

Hmmmm.....I wonder where I got the fact that ivo610 comes off as being a tad hypocritical....

Could it be the part where he says, "with the amount of children there (its own issue) people should avoid things like this." OR should we go for door # 2 Monty, where he says, "Actually they should be ticketed for signs like this in public."

Ticketed? Really? For free speech? I wonder where I got that notion from....

hypocritical? how am I being hypocritical?

People should avoid making signs that have explicit language in the presence of children. The capital square is an area of children with several museums targets towards children in the area. (even though parents shouldnt bring children to rallys imo).

as for people being ticketed, they should if you have a sign with F*CK in it. I would consider it disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. maybe being ticketed is a bit extreme and maybe manners dont have a place where your from but I hope Wi still has some.