Challenging the new coach thinking

[Beab66]

IPBPRez, The comment about Favre and Sherman was never printed to my knowledge. The radio perspnalities were hashing this topic and brought in Chris Havel from the GB Press-Gazette. Nobody denied that this incident took place, so I guess this was one of those things passed along and not brought up until they discussed Favre's future. Also menmtioned in that discussion was that free agents either coming to or leaving Green Bay would not influence Bretts' decision to return. All the reporters felt that it was his wife's health that was his main concern.

 

[IPBprez]

OK..TO....Here's a question that i'm sure you and Depack are unwilling to answer..(honestly..)

Who is a better coach....Sherman or Holmgren?

I say Holmgren. He bought the Pack back to the promised land from years of mediocrity. He also bought us all the way, won the Lombardi trophy back in 1997. Bought pride back to the team. Sherman did respectably, kept us in the playoffs despite our losses, but we seemed to lose the Lambeau advantage with him, but he's better than most coaches right now including pencil head and granny glasses in minn. Holmgren is nothing in Seattle compared to Green Bay.

Uh-huh ---- that happening was mostly Ron Wolf's doing....
Bob Harlan article, in another thread, demonstrates that....

Holmgren's ability to even win, or even make it to... the NFC Championship game?
...provides what we need to see for evidence about Coaching ability(s)....

 

[TOPackerFan]

I think Mike Holmgren may have been, when he was in Green Bay, a better "in-game" coach. That is, able to change things up when not working. That being said, it's a lot easier to do that with a #1 defense which includes Reggie White. I'd like to see what kind of coach he'd have been with Brett at the end of his career and with the pathetic D that we've fielded for the past 2-3 years. I bet you his record would be pretty close to Sherman's playoff record as it currently stands.

Sherman is meticulous and his teams have always finished the season better than they started it. The problem with him is that his teams always start slow, both in games in particular and in the season overall. He doesn't seem to value offensive possessions which is confusing given that he is an ex offensive coordinator.

The bottom line is that it's difficult to compare who's better as I think they both underachieved during their terms in GB. Holmgren's teams should have won at least two and maybe three Super Bowls whereas Sherman's teams should have been to at least one NFC Championship game and likely one Super Bowl.

Sherman does, I believe have an edge in head to head meetings between the two winning one regular season and one playoff game, though they both came at Lambeau Field where we should be expected to win.

 

[P@ck66]

Sorry IBP..

i don't think so...

Wolf didn't coach them on the field, nor did he call the plays...

somebody's got a grudge against Holmgren, methinks..

 

[P@ck66]

TO and Depack..and IBP..

Who has the #1 offense in the NFL RIGHT NOW!

I think it's the Seachickens year to go far in the playoffs....

and Holmgren's done it by himself and without Brett Favre...

 

[TOPackerFan]

Sorry IBP..

i don't think so...

Wolf didn't coach them on the field, nor did he call the plays...

somebody's got a grudge against Holmgren, methinks..

You're right, Wolf didn't do those things. All he did was draft LeRoy Butler, sign Reggie White and trade a first round pick for Brett Favre. I also wouldn't annoint the SeaChickens the NFC's best just yet. It is, after all, only week 7.

 

[IPBprez]

Sorry IBP..

i don't think so...

Wolf didn't coach them on the field, nor did he call the plays...

somebody's got a grudge against Holmgren, methinks..

C'mon guys --- it's I-P-B..... (appreciate it)

Moving on --- right above your posting (this quote).. it outright demonstrates extremely viable thinking... yet you seem to overlook it totally. I have NO grudge against anyone. To me, Holmgren shot himself in the foot with leaving Green Bay and biting (off?) the hand that fed him to such high achievement. Sherman's problem, appears to be, that he doesn't review history - therefore is DOOMED to repeat it.... look at 2003, and then 1997/8 playoff runs for the Packers.. i.e. - Jan '98 SB vs Eagles NFC playoff.

One could make a point about the 'hawks being better now that TT is in GB.
Or is it that Holmgren has more say in things again, without the responsibility of GM.??

Fer sure - think about this.... Holmgren did not tell Wolf what to do...
Nor, did he push the envelope in trying.. which he did do at Seattle w/ TT.

So - yea.. Wolf was the creator of the Team that gave Holmgren his chance to shine as a HC.. What's more.. RW kept feeding him players throughout the 90's... No way did MH keep the ballrolling by his lonesome. You're trippin' the rift with that angle.

 

[wpr]

Sherman is meticulous and his teams have always finished the season better than they started it. The problem with him is that his teams always start slow, both in games in particular and in the season overall. He doesn't seem to value offensive possessions which is confusing given that he is an ex offensive coordinator.

I think you got that right TO. The thing that I find most frustrating about the Packers the last few seasons is that they seem to lack a sense of urgency in the games and the season as a whole. They seem to think they can sleep walk along until the 4th Q and then win the game.

The young Brett played like his hair was on fire (which led to TO) we still have the TO but not the effort. hey just don't have the talent to march down field 2-3 times in the 2nd half and score while the def shuts down the opposition.

 

[DePack]

By your definition 66 Sherman has been the better coach the last 5-6 years. His playoff record is 2-4. Holmy's is 0-3. That's all that matters....right?

Yes.....your new favorite team has the #1 offense right now. Congrats. Oh, by the way, Tom Rossley has had a top 5 offense for the past few years. So now you are saying Holmgren is equivalent to Tom Rossley?

*******, I love it when you keep shooting yourselve in the foot!

 

[Sterling]

Hey guys,
The thiing that really bugs me about Sherman is he has all but destroyed the Lambeau Mystique. Holmgren had some great streaks going at home and that is done. No one is afraid to come to the frozen tundra any more. Even the lowly Bears have scored a W as recent as last year.
However, with that said, Seattle fans despise Holmgren. At least that is what I've heard from people who live there. They have offered him back to GB lots of times.
I for one would like to see a new OC, one with imagination, one that can make game time adjustments and one that can manage the clock and instill a sense of urgency in the offense.
Of course, that person would probably have a hard time accomplishing that with Sherman in control.
Both of them have good points and bad points. I for one thought MH gave the Pack the shaft when he left and took most of the front office along with him. Hell, he would have even taken the janitor if he could. I don't want him back either. Without Favre, White and Wolf, I don't think he is nearly as good.

 

[P@ck66]

No..that's not what i'm saying at ALL..DePack..

Once again, i am afraid i am beyond your comprehension...

What i AM saying is that Mike Holmgren is clearly the better coach for the following reasons.....

1. Holmgren doesn't freeze up in a big game and not know what play to call, whether to challenge a play or not, or how to not manage a clock during a game....

2. Holmgren's offenses have balance and creativity, thereby are not as "predictable" as SherRossley's..and therefore are more fundamentally football sound, than SherRossley's......

3. IT doesn't matter what kind of "statistics" the Packers ran up with Rossley...(Statistics don't matter..)if you don't know what play to call to score in the red zone, or what to do when opposing defenses figure out what your doing and stuffs your offense..then you are in a bad way...Jeff George used to have good stats too, but I wouldn't call him a winner.....

(SherRossley is the Jeff George of the coaching world.....)

4. Last but not least,.....SherRossley sucks as a head coach, and Holmgren doesn't....he's had to do it without the benefit of having Brett Favre...

5. If Holmgren stayed with the Pack...Favre would have 3-4 SB rings by now...

 

[IPBprez]

66 - you forgot one thing... maybe.....

I agree with 1 & 5.. (4, not so much)

Holmgren's not afraid to include his QB in his discussions - DURING THE GAME!

We certainly would have won most likely in 2002 & certainly in 2003 under Holmgren.
MH has a tendency to review the historical - meaning the collapse in 1998 SB....?
...would not be repeated.. (which it was, totally)

..the Jeff George of the "coaching world".... WHERE did that come from?

I know this probably shouldn't make any difference - but......

Does anyone.... get the impression that Mike Sherman, or Tom Rossley, have "ever" been in any physical confrontations in younger life? Ya ya - I remember the Warren Sapp conversation.. and that's all it was... To me - it seems that guys who have had dealings, outside the bar, so to speak... tend to not freeze up so much which intense situations arise.... We've been poked in the chest by DETROIT, CLEVELAND, and TAMPA BAY.... and finally slapped the hand away - almost - during the Panthers game.... Cleaning the Saints' clock shouldn't really be considered a true fight, though.... seriously...

Now - it's (if you will) Chris Hovan time....

Do ya think the Coach will throw some smack their way, or what?

 

[vikefan]

I wonder what team has fans that like their coaches. New England? Maybe Philly? Tampa is 5-1 and there are many fans on their board who thinks he's an idiot and should be fired and this a couple years after he won the SB. Of course that was with Dungys team.

Oakland fans are screaming for Turners head and wish they had Gruden back. The way the rules are set up for parity makes it a lot tougher on coaches to win.

I can even feel sorry for Tice as Red wouldn't spend any money for coaches.

 

[P@ck66]

yeah..Jeff George...

looks good in a uniform..has a rocket for a right arm...puts up good statistics....interviews well...

can't win an important, tight game if his life depended on it....
Mike Sherm...i mean Jeff George....

 

[DePack]

"Mike Holmgren's Seahawks have the #1 offense"......"Stats don't matter"......try to stoop to my level and explain why they matter for Holmgren but not Sherman.

Face it ******....you've been outed.....now fess up........what is your favorite team?

Vikefan....best post in this idiotic thread. Philly calls for Reid's head at the end of every season when they choke. If Sherman did what Reid does in the playoffs every year 666 would be *****ing that he "can't win the big one". It is in the little *****'s blood. "My team can't win.....I'm gonna cry."

 

[P@ck66]

easy DePack..easy..you'll blow a gasket...don't throw a hissy fit...

must've touched a nerve referencing Holmgren...(gets your blood pressure up...and profanity..i thought you were above that....)

listen...i would be ecstatic if Andy Reid was coaching the Packers...don't know how they let him slip away..and we got stuck with this hump--Sherman...

hey..at least the Eagles bring it every week...and they lost the SB because McNabb got tight and choked a little...

i would rather have the Pack get to the dance and lose a squeaker with Reid...than get HUMILIATED at Lambeau by the Vikings in the first round of the playoffs because your too stupid to come up with a different game plan against the team you just played TWO WEEKS AGO...

and there's many other coaches i would rather see leading the Pack...but make no mistake..i am a Packer's fan....that's why i'm calling for Sherman's head....

sometimes you have to cut off the offending limb so the patient will heal...

 

[IPBprez]

Trust me - when Andy Reid was hired away from the Packers - all h-e-double-toothpicks broke out....

A - who is this guy - w / NO HC experience.....?
B - why didn't they go get a known entity - why this nobody?

It was rampant all over Philly. Think about what you're saying........
Then go back and review actual historical fact about Reid and others...
Read the events timeline... first.

 

[P@ck66]

hell...that's what i was sayin' about SHERMAN....

AND I'M STILL SAYING IT....!

 

[DePack]

666....have fun pretending to be a Pack fan but remember the downside. Mike Sherman was just re-signed a month or so ago to be YOUR head coach for at least the next two years. Enjoy the ride big boy!!!

 

[ChuckSTG]

Two years ago when the dreaded "4th and 26th" happened I thought the smarter thing to do instead of firing Ed Donatel was to fire Rossely. Look back at hte game and remember when we were on the the 2 yard line and I think it was 4th down. What does he call. A ******** deep counter play that takes time to develop and Green ended up losing yards. Always thought we should have replace him long ago. Even look at last year. When he got sick and Sherman took over our defense took off. And then look at donatell, doing pretty well in atlanta. Not completing giving up on sherman cause we've only played 5 games. If we still win the division (possibility that we can do that with a losing record too :-? ) maybe keep him around, but I'm not saying either that i wouldn't mind a new coach. Will be interesting too see what happens when farve leaves and how the packers look. Once he leaves we have lost our identity (much like the Vikings and Lions are right now) and will need a good coach to make some playmakes out of what we have.

 

[TOPackerFan]

Two years ago when the dreaded "4th and 26th" happened I thought the smarter thing to do instead of firing Ed Donatel was to fire Rossely. Look back at hte game and remember when we were on the the 2 yard line and I think it was 4th down. What does he call. A ******** deep counter play that takes time to develop and Green ended up losing yards. Always thought we should have replace him long ago. Even look at last year. When he got sick and Sherman took over our defense took off. And then look at donatell, doing pretty well in atlanta. Not completing giving up on sherman cause we've only played 5 games. If we still win the division (possibility that we can do that with a losing record too :-? ) maybe keep him around, but I'm not saying either that i wouldn't mind a new coach. Will be interesting too see what happens when farve leaves and how the packers look. Once he leaves we have lost our identity (much like the Vikings and Lions are right now) and will need a good coach to make some playmakes out of what we have.

The Falcons have the worst run defense in the NFL right now. It's typical of every D we had in Green Bay, soft up the middle, and they're not even running that stupid Under 7 Slice crap anymore.

 

[musccy]

Pack66...by far your dumbest post yet, no doubt..."Brett would have 3-4 more sbs if Holmgren were around." How the hell do you prove that?!? OK, I'm going to make a claim on the same sophmoric level...If Sharper and Barnett didn't blow the 4th and 26, the Packers would have beat Carolina 112-3!

And, what makes that point even more ridiculous is that Holmy was handed about as much talent as the organization has seen, yet under his watch, one of the biggest SB upsets in history occurred, and they only won ONE superbowl...so where are these other 3-4 that you describe going to come from?!?

Unfortunatly, I know this post, just like all the others by DePack and myself where we raise great points that you can't defend, will be ignored by you, and you'll just come back w/ "MS is dumb"

 

[musccy]

...and all of your other points are "Sherman is dumb and predictable." It never ends, it's the same generic, subjective, broken record rambling.

Step back for just 10 seconds, take off your "I want to kill MS" glasses and look at your list of 5 reasons you hate MS post on page 3 of this thread. Look at how generic and subjective your criticism of him is, and honestly ask yourself how many coaches you could "edit copy paste" the same crap in for?!? The answer is all of them, at least if you use your broad and simplistic arguments.

And...if a play doesn't work, does that mean it's predictable?!? If Holmy is SOOOO great, then why did he lose to your hero, Mr. "I can't game plan in a big game and I always tie up," Mike Sherman?!? How did that happen?!?

 

[P@ck66]

musscy..

this must be your first year watching football because you don't know what the HELL you are talking about...

Oh, the Packers offense is not predictable the last 5 years with Sherrosley at the helm? I've heard MANY posters here make that statement..yet they all must be delusional according to you...when in fact, you are delusional, my friend, when it comes to assessing the talents, or lack thereof, of Mike Sherman....

4th and 26..? Beating the Panthers?
Perhaps if Sherman didn't over-rule Donatel's call for a blitz at that moment..(another Sherman mistake among many that day), they would have gone to the NFC championship....but the PAck was lucky that Hasselbeck threw that interception the week before, because they were on their way to losing that game!

and understand this: Holmgren lost the second super bowl because his defensive linemen were fat, old, and out of shape and couldn't stop Terrell Davis....but i have no doubt..if not stabbed in the back by Harlan, Holmgren would have won another SB with Favre because he's a much better coach than Sherman--way better!

(tell me this..why did they not offer Holmgren the GM and HC position, and then turn around and offer it to one of his underlings with NO HC experience, and no proven track record in the NFL?
Yeah..that worked out real good now..didn't it?)

The criticisms are not "subjective" as you say, but dead on balls accurate..and i know there are quite a few Packer fans out there who agree with this assessment of Mike Sherman..yet they may not come out and state it on this forum...although others have from time to time...

 

[musccy]

for the 3,456,721th time, I've never said MS doesn't have faults...my beef w/ you is that you are under the impression that he is the ONLY coach that does. You think Fox or whomever is the greatest thing out there, but if you watched every Panther, or Titan, or Cowboys game as religiously as you watch the Packers, you'd notice that other coaches are predictable at times, lose to teams they "shouldn't lose to," biff it in the playoffs, etc.

4th and 26...I'm going to steal a page out of your book...IT'S A LITTLE THING CALLED EXECUTION. Barnett and Sharper were known to be out of position, and later on THAT VERY DRIVE MM managed to drop a sure int in the endzone...that would have ended the game...but since even you can't blame MS for that, you have to conveniently forget about it.

Holmgren did a real bang-up job as a GM in Seattle now, didn't he...maybe the Packers knew something Seattle didn't, thus didn't give MH the job?!? And if the SB loss is because of the d-linemen...then why did the Packers not switch to ball control and running it to rest the d-line? Denver nearly doubled the number of runs as the Packers (20-39). Looks like a big game mgmt blunder to me. I guess it's obvious he can't coach in the big game, eh?

Finally...you're keep bringing up that MS was a no-name before being head coach...Well you're a big fan of Reid, right?!? Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was never more than a position coach prior to becoming a HC...but I don't see you b!tching about that!