Best offseason in the NFC north

[bigbubbatd]

I think people are high on the Viking's defense because the Vikings appear to have some pretty good, improving players on that defense. Somehow Anthony Barr fell to them in the draft last season and he played like the top-10 pick he should have been. They have one of the better young safeties in the NFL in Harrison Smith, a very good young corner in Rhodes, another good, young linebacker in Hodges, one very good dlineman in Griffen and Floyd looks as though he should also turn into a great dlineman.

Now, there's a lot of projection going on with the improvements that should occur with the Viking's defense but there are fewer questions for them than there are for the Packer's defense.

There is some truth to the Vikings having one or two fewer questions but there are a couple odd things with this post. First Hodges is not a good linebacker. He is adequate at best. Barr was drafted in the top 10. He was drafted number 9 actually. Anthony Barr didnt fall at all he went right around where he was projected.

Also the Vikings have some of the same questions as the Packers. In the defensive backfields there are question marks the Vikings have Rhodes and Smith as known commodities but that is it. Blanton at safety and Robinson, Newman, and Captain at cb are lucky to be average players next year. Waynes is obviously a question mark like Randle and Rollins. The Packers have known commodities in Shields, Clinton Dix and Burnett who all are likely to be above average or better at their position. Hayward is better than the 3 cbs mentioned for the Vikings. Hyde gives the Packers more depth.

At ILB both team have questions. Kendrick could be good but there were quite a few questions about his ability to stick inside and Zimmer even mentioned OLB is probably his best fit. The Packers are more solidified if Matthews plays there. Barrington seems like just a guy. Ryan is a wildcard.

OLB are asked to do different things but each plays two. Barr has crazy upside although in the midst of his flash also struggled with tackling at times. Before he got hurt he was getting exposed a bit there but I think it gets figured out. They are also weak on the other time. The Packers have Matthews sometimes, and Peppers. Both grade out well. Perry and Neal give solid depth.

At DL the Vikings have the clear upper hand in talent with Griffen, Floyd, and Joseph, but oddly they were not good against the run last year. Green Bay bad - remember Lacy running all over them? They also were not a great sack team but that could be because Robison under preformed and is likely getting worse. The Packers have one solid player in Daniels graded out as one of the better 3/4 DE's seemingly comparable to Griffen. Raji, Guion, Jones need to step up.
As I write all that I can see that Vikings as being viewed as better but the gap doesnt seem really large

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There's no denying the Vikings have a superior defensive line compared to the Packers. Their linebackers are a huge question mark against the run though, while both Greenway and Barr are great rushing the passers they don't make any plays in run defense and even if I really liked Kendricks I think that's probably the one area he could get exposed.

Their secondary could be very good if Trae Waynes can step in and play a decent year outside and Harrison Smith can bounce back from a subpar season. Robert Blanton was actually their best safety in 2014. They don't have as much depth in the secondary as the Packers though.

Overall, it's likely their defense will have a better season than the Packers unit. But I don't expect the difference to be even close to make up for the Packers way more talented offense.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There is some truth to the Vikings having one or two fewer questions but there are a couple odd things with this post. First Hodges is not a good linebacker. He is adequate at best. Barr was drafted in the top 10. He was drafted number 9 actually. Anthony Barr didnt fall at all he went right around where he was projected.

Also the Vikings have some of the same questions as the Packers. In the defensive backfields there are question marks the Vikings have Rhodes and Smith as known commodities but that is it. Blanton at safety and Robinson, Newman, and Captain at cb are lucky to be average players next year. Waynes is obviously a question mark like Randle and Rollins. The Packers have known commodities in Shields, Clinton Dix and Burnett who all are likely to be above average or better at their position. Hayward is better than the 3 cbs mentioned for the Vikings. Hyde gives the Packers more depth.

At ILB both team have questions. Kendrick could be good but there were quite a few questions about his ability to stick inside and Zimmer even mentioned OLB is probably his best fit. The Packers are more solidified if Matthews plays there. Barrington seems like just a guy. Ryan is a wildcard.

OLB are asked to do different things but each plays two. Barr has crazy upside although in the midst of his flash also struggled with tackling at times. Before he got hurt he was getting exposed a bit there but I think it gets figured out. They are also weak on the other time. The Packers have Matthews sometimes, and Peppers. Both grade out well. Perry and Neal give solid depth.

At DL the Vikings have the clear upper hand in talent with Griffen, Floyd, and Joseph, but oddly they were not good against the run last year. Green Bay bad - remember Lacy running all over them? They also were not a great sack team but that could be because Robison under preformed and is likely getting worse. The Packers have one solid player in Daniels graded out as one of the better 3/4 DE's seemingly comparable to Griffen. Raji, Guion, Jones need to step up.
As I write all that I can see that Vikings as being viewed as better but the gap doesnt seem really large

My point was never to imply that the Vikings were a better, or even comparable, team to the Packers. I was simply pointing out why people were thinking the Vikings would improve. I will disagree on Hodges, who was ranked as the 9th best 4-3 OLB by PFF (Barr was 8th). Keep in mind that Hodges was only in his second year last year so he could still improve markedly.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

My point was never to imply that the Vikings were a better, or even comparable, team to the Packers. I was simply pointing out why people were thinking the Vikings would improve. I will disagree on Hodges, who was ranked as the 9th best 4-3 OLB by PFF (Barr was 8th). Keep in mind that Hodges was only in his second year last year so he could still improve markedly.

Hodges was actually the Vikings most solid OLB in all aspects of the game. Barr was terrible against the run and was constantly exposed in coverage as well.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Hodges was actually the Vikings most solid OLB in all aspects of the game. Barr was terrible against the run and was constantly exposed in coverage as well.

I am really surprised Hodges ranked that high. I watch a lot of the Viking's games and he just didnt stand out. Pro Football Focus is smarter than I am. It does seem the Vikings must not be as high on him because they could have cut Greenway to save a bunch of money instead they kept his big contract and kept him as a starter. Hodges is the backup right now and when Barr and Greenway were healthy he was the backup. It seems like he only had 6 starts year so the body of work really isnt there yet but I have been wrong plenty of times on players so maybe he is really good.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I am really surprised Hodges ranked that high. I watch a lot of the Viking's games and he just didnt stand out. Pro Football Focus is smarter than I am. It does seem the Vikings must not be as high on him because they could have cut Greenway to save a bunch of money instead they kept his big contract and kept him as a starter. Hodges is the backup right now and when Barr and Greenway were healthy he was the backup. It seems like he only had 6 starts year so the body of work really isnt there yet but I have been wrong plenty of times on players so maybe he is really good.

I can't remember who said it but there was an ex-player talking about coaches and GMs and they're proclivity for seeing what they want to see regarding players. Hodges was a fourth round pick, out of 10 plays he probably has 7-8 good ones but the coaches only focus on the bad ones and say, "see, that's why he's a fourth round guy" while Greenway might have 7-8 bad plays out of 10 but the coaches focus on the 3 good ones and say, "see what he's capable of? He's getting his old shape back and we need that reliability". For exhibit (A) I present AJ HAWK!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I am really surprised Hodges ranked that high. I watch a lot of the Viking's games and he just didnt stand out. Pro Football Focus is smarter than I am. It does seem the Vikings must not be as high on him because they could have cut Greenway to save a bunch of money instead they kept his big contract and kept him as a starter. Hodges is the backup right now and when Barr and Greenway were healthy he was the backup. It seems like he only had 6 starts year so the body of work really isnt there yet but I have been wrong plenty of times on players so maybe he is really good.

Hodges played more than 500 snaps last season. He doesn´t offer a lot rushing the passer but was solid in run defense, tackling efficiency and coverage. The Vikings could have saved $2.875 million by releasing Greenway. While that is a lot of money the team currently has close to $10 million in cap space so they don´t need to cut players because of the cap.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

This past offseason, Brandon Spikes called his time in New England "4 years a slave" while he was waiting around in free agency for somebody to sign him. And where did he end up going after one year in Buffalo? New England of course.

Should I say it again? Time and money heals all wounds.

Well, the Patriots have released Brandon Spikes today after questions emerged about a traffic incident this weekend.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Can we conclude Spikes is on his way to Dallas?

I take back everything I said in the past about TT needing to try and sign Spikes......LOL

 

[TJV]

... the Patriots have released Brandon Spikes today ...

Hallelujah! He's no longer a slave! Congrats, Brandon.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Hallelujah! He's no longer a slave! Congrats, Brandon.

He totaled his Maybach, a vehicle preferred by the economically oppressed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Amazing how the damage to the front of his car looks similar to that of the rear of the car that was hit and run that night and no dead deer anywhere....hmmmmm

 

[Megatron]

The Lions lost four of their top six defensive lineman from last season as well as all defensive tackles who took any snaps for them aside of Caraun Reid. One of the returning DL (Jason D. Jones) had a really bad season in 2014. The team replaced them with a 31-year old Haloti Ngata who was ranked in the bottom half of all 3-4 defensive ends last year, a promising player in Tyrunn Walker who has only played a total of 400 snaps during his career so far though and Corey Wootton who was absolutely terrible last year. In addition the team spent a fourth round pick on Gabe Wright. All of the other guys they brought in are probably not worth talking about.

If you really think the Lions defensive line will be as good as last season and the Packers lost as much quality as Detroit because of getting rid of one of the worst ILB tandems in the league you´re really out of touch with reality.

It's been awhile now, but I can tell you aren't even reading my posts, how many times am I going to have to repeat myself?

Ngata has been a top 5 DT his whole career, he is a 5 time pro bowler, PFF graded last season as his best. Not to mention his responsibilities are going to be different. Ngata is taller, 50+ pounds heavier, stronger, and about equally as fast as Suh. All the Lions need is for him to be 90% as good as Suh was, which isn't at all a stretch. Also, what made Suh great last season wasn't his 8 sacks, but how well he defended the run. It was the first year he had defended the run well. Ngata is a better run defender than Suh.

The other guys that left were all scrubs, products of a system who were previously nothing. You think losing George Johnson is going to be an issue? Lol. No. I'm not going to go into detail here since I already have and you just completely ignored it.. but the point is, outside of Suh the Lions lost scrubs on the DL, nobodies. That line now has Ngata, Ziggy Ansah who was the 3rd best DE in the league last year, and is most analysts pick to have a huge break out year. Walker, who has graded in his snaps to be as good as Nick Fairley playing his best, that's with Walker playing out of natural position. Suh + CJ Mosely that defense was still incredible, despite some injuries to key starters elsewhere. No matter how you cut it, Walker is a massive upgrade to CJ Mosely, who is terrible. So one DT spot is slightly downgraded, the other massively upgraded. And don't discount Reid, he is going to surprise.

Jason Jones didn't have a bad year, or disappoint at all, he played as a 'closed' end, and still had 5 sacks...

What drives that defense is one of the best if not the best 4-3 LB corps in the league, a top 3 safety tandem, and two great CBs. This year the LBs will be improved, particularly MLB, and the nickel situation is greatly improved.

Wooten was brought in as a camp body at DE, so I'm not sure what your point is about him.

Suh was on a lot of bad defenses in Detroit, so he obviously didn't "make" the defense, and you are discounting a lot of talent all over that defense, as mentioned. You're also discounting one of the best DCs in the game, and some of the best defensive position coaches in the league. Injuries if they happen could set the defense back of course, but if you're expecting that defense to suddenly be mediocre, you're silly. And as a GB fan, I figure you would of loved to see Suh stay with the Lions, paying through the nose for a 4-3 DT is stupidity. Getting a guy 90%(thereabouts, of course)as good, for less than half the money, also buying themselves a couple years to acquire and develop a cheap replacement is brilliant. Again, paying a DT 20 million(not cap hit, but actually PAYING) a year is stupidity. I was hoping the bears would do something that stupid, honestly.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

TT drafted Aaron Rodgers. At the time we had a QB who had started 200+ games and was expected to plaay another 2 years. That is the exact method TT uses. Draft the best player whether you need him to play right away or not. Yet many posters for years wish the Pack had picked a mediocre WR in support of their win now mentality.

TT does use FA. He is just careful. For most FAs the team regrets the this HTML class. Value is Sorry the bakery is within a season or two. Suppose we ate up salary cap a few years ago surrounding BF with WRs? He was still BF and would have killed our season with a stupid pick. And we wouldnt have had the cap space to sign some of our greats we have now.

Packers were a bounce of the ball away from another SB last season. You can't control all the weird luck and injuries and circumstances that occur randomly in a season or a game.

BTW nice comeback Amish. Yeah TT did draft ARod and CMIII and Lacy and on. Nice post, even better comeback.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's been awhile now, but I can tell you aren't even reading my posts, how many times am I going to have to repeat myself?

Ngata has been a top 5 DT his whole career, he is a 5 time pro bowler, PFF graded last season as his best. Not to mention his responsibilities are going to be different. Ngata is taller, 50+ pounds heavier, stronger, and about equally as fast as Suh. All the Lions need is for him to be 90% as good as Suh was, which isn't at all a stretch. Also, what made Suh great last season wasn't his 8 sacks, but how well he defended the run. It was the first year he had defended the run well. Ngata is a better run defender than Suh.

The other guys that left were all scrubs, products of a system who were previously nothing. You think losing George Johnson is going to be an issue? Lol. No. I'm not going to go into detail here since I already have and you just completely ignored it.. but the point is, outside of Suh the Lions lost scrubs on the DL, nobodies. That line now has Ngata, Ziggy Ansah who was the 3rd best DE in the league last year, and is most analysts pick to have a huge break out year. Walker, who has graded in his snaps to be as good as Nick Fairley playing his best, that's with Walker playing out of natural position. Suh + CJ Mosely that defense was still incredible, despite some injuries to key starters elsewhere. No matter how you cut it, Walker is a massive upgrade to CJ Mosely, who is terrible. So one DT spot is slightly downgraded, the other massively upgraded. And don't discount Reid, he is going to surprise.

Jason Jones didn't have a bad year, or disappoint at all, he played as a 'closed' end, and still had 5 sacks...

What drives that defense is one of the best if not the best 4-3 LB corps in the league, a top 3 safety tandem, and two great CBs. This year the LBs will be improved, particularly MLB, and the nickel situation is greatly improved.

Wooten was brought in as a camp body at DE, so I'm not sure what your point is about him.

Suh was on a lot of bad defenses in Detroit, so he obviously didn't "make" the defense, and you are discounting a lot of talent all over that defense, as mentioned. You're also discounting one of the best DCs in the game, and some of the best defensive position coaches in the league. Injuries if they happen could set the defense back of course, but if you're expecting that defense to suddenly be mediocre, you're silly. And as a GB fan, I figure you would of loved to see Suh stay with the Lions, paying through the nose for a 4-3 DT is stupidity. Getting a guy 90%(thereabouts, of course)as good, for less than half the money, also buying themselves a couple years to acquire and develop a cheap replacement is brilliant. Again, paying a DT 20 million(not cap hit, but actually PAYING) a year is stupidity. I was hoping the bears would do something that stupid, honestly.

I don't care how often you repeat your point of view, there's no way I'll agree with you. If you want to believe the Lions defense improved by losing Suh and Fairley go ahead with it, I'm done discussing it with you.

The only thing that matters to me is that the Packers are by far the most talented team in the division and if Rodgers stays healthy there's no way any other team has a chance to win the NFC North.

 

[TJV]

TT drafted Aaron Rodgers. At the time we had a QB who had started 200+ games and was expected to plaay another 2 years. That is the exact method TT uses. Draft the best player whether you need him to play right away or not.

This discussion has been hashed and re-hashed on this board and because it has, your blunt assertion (that I bolded) has been thoroughly rebutted. IMO the pick of Rodgers is one of the very few BPA picks Thompson has made.

But the main reason I quoted your post was to ask you to translate the part of this quote I bolded:

TT does use FA. He is just careful. For most FAs the team regrets the this HTML class. Value is Sorry the bakery is within a season or two.

 

[Half Empty]

How many times had Favre retired by the time AR was drafted?

 

[Carl]

How many times had Favre retired by the time AR was drafted?

Zero.

 

[Half Empty]

Yup. I guess time makes it seem like the soap opera dragged on for much longer than it did. The sub-par 2005/6 seasons don't help the memory, either.

 

[AmishMafia]

This discussion has been hashed and re-hashed on this board and because it has, your blunt assertion (that I bolded) has been thoroughly rebutted. IMO the pick of Rodgers is one of the very few BPA picks Thompson has made.

But the main reason I quoted your post was to ask you to translate the part of this quote I bolded:

Firstly you have never presented a shred of evidence that TT does not draft BPA. I think your lack of acceptance of this is a lack of consistency in the use of the term BPA. I present as evidence of this your post stating that the BPA may not fit our system.

This seams to imply that there is only a single BPA. The fact is there are usually several players ranked similarly at each Packer pick.

Secondly, how can a player that doesnt fit our scheme be ranked higher than a player that does? Do you think there is a universal list of players all teams use? Or maybe our scouts dont consider our scheme when they evaluate players? Either idea is silly.

I still believe the Packers draft as TT has stated more than once, BPA.

As far as the meaning of my text - lost my reading glasses, sun washed out screen, i was drunk, damn auto correct, hallucinations, or i was once again channelling the writer Thareau. Not Henry but Fred Thereau, a chicago cabbie and horrible poet who died in the 40s. Take your pick, i dont recall what i was trying to type.

 

[OldSchool101]

How many times had Favre retired by the time AR was drafted?

IDK. But I did solve the riddle.
Favre Cries on national TV= he's coming back and playing
Favre stops crying on TV= actual retirement

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Firstly you have never presented a shred of evidence that TT does not draft BPA. I think your lack of acceptance of this is a lack of consistency in the use of the term BPA. I present as evidence of this your post stating that the BPA may not fit our system.

This seams to imply that there is only a single BPA. The fact is there are usually several players ranked similarly at each Packer pick.

I still believe the Packers draft as TT has stated more than once, BPA.

You just presented evidence that Thompson or any other GM in the league doesn't draft BPA.

As you've correctly pointed out teams rank prospects in different tiers and in case several players out of one group are still available (which nearly happens with every pick) Thompson factors position of need and other things into selecting a player, thus making it a best value pick most of the time.

A GM taking a BPA approach would mean the team having prospects ranked consecutively from 1-500 and always taking the highest rated player, which obviously isn't the case.

 

[Mondio]

It's clearly the vikings, as they don't play ping pong to team build

 

[TJV]

Firstly you have never presented a shred of evidence that TT does not draft BPA.

You may not like what I posted but I and others have posted a lot of evidence Thompson doesn't draft BPA. Here’s a discussion you participated in, in which HRE was arguing Rodgers was a need pick and I was arguing the Rodgers pick was a rare example of BPA:
https://www.packerforum.com/threads/2013-needs.41284/#post-475576
Here's a thread I started on the subject:
https://www.packerforum.com/threads/bpa-bva-and-tiers-of-talent-in-the-draft.35167/

Not a “shred of evidence”? As captainWIMM mentioned, if need at a position is a factor, the GM is no longer picking the BPA. Purely picking BPA would be foolish - over 11 drafts we’d see multiple picks at positions of strength. Of course Thompson wouldn’t be so foolish.

 

[Mondio]

I think people make too much of this. Everything is about balance. offense, defense, special teams, coaching styles, balance in the players, balance scouting, drafting, balancing check books, everything. What personalities balance each other, work/play, blood pressure, cholesterol doesn't matter, if things lose balance everything else suffers. So in the draft, you have needs, you have wants, you have your BPA. Balance it, you'll win. If a qb is rated a 10 and a ILB , OLB, DT, CB, safety and everything else is rated a 5 you're taking the QB even with Rodgers. If you have a WR at 6 and an ILB at a 5.4 and you really need the ILB, you're probably going to pick the ILB.

I don't know how their ratings work, or where there cut off is that players are so similar that need overrides rating, but I'm sure they have one.