Any interest in Caleb Williams for 2024?

[milani]

Draft and develop is the best way to stock a team. There's no doubt about it. Why? Money. Rookie contracts, regardless of round picked, are essentially inexpensive, compared to signing free agents, or resigning your own guys to second contracts.

The time to get an OL in an early round would be when you are so devoid of any talent there and your record was abysmal the previous season.

 

[gopkrs]

Or when there is a for sure hall of famer. Like Tony Mandarich.

 

[Voyageur]

Or when there is a for sure hall of famer. Like Tony Mandarich.

Then, get in an on-air feud with a draft analyst. Lindy Infante's days in GB were over. Mel Kuyper is still out there, analyzing picks.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Draft and develop is the best way to stock a team. There's no doubt about it. Why? Money. Rookie contracts, regardless of round picked, are essentially inexpensive, compared to signing free agents, or resigning your own guys to second contracts.

No doubt you want to have as many cheap contracts as possible, but I think it's a necessary evil to pay any quality veteran starters on those 2nd and sometimes 3rd contracts. I also like that Gute has gone out and found some quality free agents (Campbell, Preston, Douglas) and while 2 of them didn't come cheap, they have pretty much earned their high pay.

You are correct though, in that if you can draft and develop well, chances are your team is made up of a fair amount of cheaper contracts and that leaves enough cap space to pay a player or 2 in each key position (QB, LT, OLB, CB, WR, DL).

 

[Voyageur]

No doubt you want to have as many cheap contracts as possible, but I think it's a necessary evil to pay any quality veteran starters on those 2nd and sometimes 3rd contracts. I also like that Gute has gone out and found some quality free agents (Campbell, Preston, Douglas) and while 2 of them didn't come cheap, they have pretty much earned their high pay.

You are correct though, in that if you can draft and develop well, chances are your team is made up of a fair amount of cheaper contracts and that leaves enough cap space to pay a player or 2 in each key position (QB, LT, OLB, CB, WR, DL).

I think the trick is to draft well enough that the high priced free agents are only brought in with short term contracts. That's what worked for the Patriots for years. Put yourself in a position where they are mercenaries, and you figure they're expendable after a year or two.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think the trick is to draft well enough that the high priced free agents are only brought in with short term contracts. That's what worked for the Patriots for years. Put yourself in a position where they are mercenaries, and you figure they're expendable after a year or two.

That works too. However, 2 recent big name FA's that the Packers continue to keep on the team, Smith and Campbell, are different stories. As were Woodson, Amos and of course Reggie White. Instead of taking a big cap hit for 1-2 years, these guys become longer term players for the Packers and their contracts and restructures reflect that. Those kinds of FA's create a strong structure and backbone of the team.

I'm not a fan of 1 year FA WR contracts. I think they need more time to learn the offense and establish chemistry with the QB. Might have worked with Rison and Desmond Howard, but when Rodgers was the QB, I can't recall any successful short term or even long term WR FA's that stuck. Recently we had Watkins and Funchess. Those 2 were straight up bombs and I guess even with multiple years, they never would have been any good.

 

[tynimiller]

That works too. However, 2 recent big name FA's that the Packers continue to keep on the team, Smith and Campbell, are different stories. As were Woodson, Amos and of course Reggie White. Instead of taking a big cap hit for 1-2 years, these guys become longer term players for the Packers and their contracts and restructures reflect that. Those kinds of FA's create a strong structure and backbone of the team.

I'm not a fan of 1 year FA WR contracts. I think they need more time to learn the offense and establish chemistry with the QB. Might have worked with Rison and Desmond Howard, but when Rodgers was the QB, I can't recall any successful short term or even long term WR FA's that stuck. Recently we had Watkins and Funchess. Those 2 were straight up bombs and I guess even with multiple years, they never would have been any good.

Watkins and Funchess were A - VERY affordable, low risk signings. Unfair IMO to designate them as bombs...especially Funchess.

First FA signing WR that stuck or worked out vs what they were I had GMo pop into my head. UDFA but still a FA signing.

Koren Robinson was a cheap FA signing too if memory serves which never underdelivered or overdelivered.

 

[gopkrs]

Watkins and Funchess were A - VERY affordable, low risk signings. Unfair IMO to designate them as bombs...especially Funchess.

First FA signing WR that stuck or worked out vs what they were I had GMo pop into my head. UDFA but still a FA signing.

Koren Robinson was a cheap FA signing too if memory serves which never underdelivered or overdelivered.

Robinson was a big disappointment to me. He had a lot of talent. Guess we got him too late in his career.

 

[tynimiller]

Robinson was a big disappointment to me. He had a lot of talent. Guess we got him too late in his career.

I don't believe anyone reasonably expected him higher than WR4 on that team however, or in my opinion no one did or should have.

 

[OldSchool101]

These are all good reasons $$$$ value of why to draft at QB more regular. If you miss a few times fine, you wasted a 5th or a 7th or maybe at most a late 3rd/4th Compensatory bonus selection. However if you hit 1 in every 3-4 QB’s choices in Day 3 and land a good backup or starter capable QB? Chances are you’ve got them on cheap $$$ and a 4yr contract. I think of “Majik man”, Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks, Matt Flynn etc..
Plus you always need a good #2 and imo the value of having a good QB2 in the meantime is easily worth a few Day 3 selections (spread across multiple drafts) That becomes even more important if you have a playoff caliber Defense and your QB1 goes out for any length of time.

QB drafting should be factored partly by how your team does at development compared to the league and how they grade out at drafting athletes. I think we go a good job preparing QB’s in GB and we have an above average scouting room. That’s my opinion but I think it’s supported across Brian’s tenure. Thus my argument is you should both bet on those strengths and do it on a continuum.

 

[Voyageur]

These are all good reasons $$$$ value of why to draft at QB more regular. If you miss a few times fine, you wasted a 5th or a 7th or maybe at most a late 3rd/4th Compensatory bonus selection. However if you hit 1 in every 3-4 QB’s choices in Day 3 and land a good backup or starter capable QB? Chances are you’ve got them on cheap $$$ and a 4yr contract. I think of “Majik man”, Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks, Matt Flynn etc..
Plus you always need a good #2 and imo the value of having a good QB2 in the meantime is easily worth a few Day 3 selections (spread across multiple drafts) That becomes even more important if you have a playoff caliber Defense and your QB1 goes out for any length of time.

Excellent point. Wolf believed you drafted one every year. The objective was that you could do exactly what you said, and eventually end up with a sequence of replacements. Look at the number of guys the Packers had in house, during his era, who went on to play elsewhere. Even when they didn't totally succeed in those locations, it's no indication that they wouldn't have done a great job had they stayed with the Packers, and became heir apparent.

Coaches and system are often the difference makers for prospective QBs. Creative coaches know that, and coach to make it work. Too many coaches aren't willing to move away from mindset, and try to force these players into being "exactly" what they envision a good QB should be. It's almost to the point of wanting to point out to the which underwear they should wear.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Watkins and Funchess were A - VERY affordable, low risk signings. Unfair IMO to designate them as bombs...especially Funchess.

Not sure how you look at either as good signings, just because they were cheap? Funchess signed for $2.5M and ended up costing the Packers $1M+ an injury settlement and never played a down. Watkins was paid $1.85 million and looked lost and washed up the few times he did play. I realize that neither were paid "big money", but I would still consider both as bombs/duds.

I agree they are definitely poor examples of why giving a FA WR more than a 1 year deal is a good thing. Thank god the Packers didn't tie up a lot of money in either. That said, if Gute ever decides to give a top FA WR big money, I would hope he ties him up for more than 1 year. I just don't think a year is enough time for a receiver to establish himself with a team. Neither Funchess or Watkins went on to do anything, so yes, the Packers avoided tying up too much money with those 2.

 

[tynimiller]

Not sure how you look at either as good signings

I NEVER said good signings.

 

[OldSchool101]

Excellent point. Wolf believed you drafted one every year. The objective was that you could do exactly what you said, and eventually end up with a sequence of replacements. Look at the number of guys the Packers had in house, during his era, who went on to play elsewhere. Even when they didn't totally succeed in those locations, it's no indication that they wouldn't have done a great job had they stayed with the Packers, and became heir apparent.

Coaches and system are often the difference makers for prospective QBs. Creative coaches know that, and coach to make it work. Too many coaches aren't willing to move away from mindset, and try to force these players into being "exactly" what they envision a good QB should be. It's almost to the point of wanting to point out to the which underwear they should wear.

Yes. I just see it from a more global view. QB’s are obviously the most important players on the team. They are also arguable one of the top 3 players after the starters. We could argue Edge3 or DT3 or WR3,4 because they are also employed in some rotation week to week and their impact is felt over QB2 game to game and not just sitting on the bench. However across the season? once that QB1 comes out for any reason.. Concussion, illness, minor injury, etc. that QB2 becomes the most important player on that field. Their value surpasses Edge3 in just a few contests. I can live without my #3Edge, especially if I have a deep bench or versatile players.
I can’t really live without Flynn coming in
and keeping our postseason alive.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I NEVER said good signings.

You got me there.

However, you stating "Unfair IMO to designate them as bombs...especially Funchess" and "Watkins and Funchess were A - VERY affordable, low risk signings." isn't saying they were bad either, which I incorrectly interpreted as you saying that they were "good signings".

 

[tynimiller]

You got me there.

However, you stating "Unfair IMO to designate them as bombs...especially Funchess" and "Watkins and Funchess were A - VERY affordable, low risk signings." isn't saying they were bad either, which I incorrectly interpreted as you saying that they were "good signings".

I just don't live in a amazing or bomb world for signings. Low risk signings such as either of these I personally wasn't expecting mountains from, I thought Watkins would be at minimum a guy we would keep and trust as a say WR3 or WR4 for more time then we did but in the end quite affordable veteran signing with low relative risk.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yes. I just see it from a more global view. QB’s are obviously the most important players on the team. They are also arguable one of the top 3 players after the starters. We could argue Edge3 or DT3 or WR3,4 because they are also employed in some rotation week to week and this their impact is felt over an QB2 game to game and not just sitting on the bench. However across the season? once that QB1 comes out for any reason.. Concussion, illness, minor injury, etc. that QB2 becomes the most important player on that field. Their value surpasses Edge3 in just a few contests. I can live without my #3Edge. I can’t live without Flynn coming in a keeping out postseason alive.

I think when you have a well established FHOF QB on your team, the need to draft QB's every season decreases quite a bit. Especially, if said FHOF QB is still young (under 34ish), productive and relatively injury free. I would also add, that if that QB has a successful team, one vying for a SB, I would prefer signing a backup QB with a lot of game management experience, just in case.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I just don't live in a amazing or bomb world for signings. Low risk signings such as either of these I personally wasn't expecting mountains from, I thought Watkins would be at minimum a guy we would keep and trust as a say WR3 or WR4 for more time then we did but in the end quite affordable veteran signing with low relative risk.

I get your point. However, you are looking at the front end, risk of money for quality of work predicted. I was viewing both at the back end of how it turned out. So while I don't disagree with the idea that neither were bad investments on the front end, both ended up being terrible investments.

 

[milani]

These are all good reasons $$$$ value of why to draft at QB more regular. If you miss a few times fine, you wasted a 5th or a 7th or maybe at most a late 3rd/4th Compensatory bonus selection. However if you hit 1 in every 3-4 QB’s choices in Day 3 and land a good backup or starter capable QB? Chances are you’ve got them on cheap $$$ and a 4yr contract. I think of “Majik man”, Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks, Matt Flynn etc..
Plus you always need a good #2 and imo the value of having a good QB2 in the meantime is easily worth a few Day 3 selections (spread across multiple drafts) That becomes even more important if you have a playoff caliber Defense and your QB1 goes out for any length of time.

QB drafting should be factored partly by how your team does at development compared to the league and how they grade out at drafting athletes. I think we go a good job preparing QB’s in GB and we have an above average scouting room. That’s my opinion but I think it’s supported across Brian’s tenure. Thus my argument is you should both bet on those strengths and do it on a continuum.

Very true. And having QBs that avoid injury make the back up role less significant. Only a chosen few have been that fortunate. Favre made it look easy. Rodgers' collar bones cost us one playoff appearance and came within one play of missing another. Think of all the games Lynn ****ey missed and who we had out there.

 

[Schultz]

Interesting conversation and a good one on "Red Flags". What is a bigger Red Flag for a team? A mechanical or physical issue that may effect a players abilities or a character flaw, legal issue, etc.?

Hard to find choir boys that graduated summa *** laude and won the Heisman, while volunteering weekly at the local homeless shelter. So how does a team classify and weight character flaws? Is a weak passing arm a bigger red flag for a QB, than him being suspended for 1 game due to undisclosed disciplinary actions? How about a guy that gets into a fight on the field VS a guy that gets into one off the field?

Obviously, everyone and every team, probably views things differently. They add up all the red flags, weight them on seriousness, frequency, ability to correct etc. and then add it into their player evaluation.

I recall when Joe Mixon was coming out of Oklahoma (2017) and he got into some off the field issues and suddenly his character was a huge red flag for many. The Bengals still rolled the dice on him and took him in the 2nd round (#48). At the time, I wouldn't have touched him with a 10 foot pole. Seems to have worked out for the Bengals, well up until now, Mixon is back in some hot water having to do with a shooting near his home, his gun supposedly being the one used, by his sisters boyfriend.

Anyway, Red Flags....they definitely mean something, just what they mean though, varies from person to person, team to team.

A red flag usually also means the hole is in the front part of the green. Sorry just got back from a golf trip.

 

[Schultz]

If the draft were tomorrow; he would be the #1 pick.

I 98% agree. Unless the Chiefs, Bengals or maybe even the Chargers, maybe 1 or 2 others had the #1 pick. IMO in that case the pick would get traded, therefore I am upgrading to 99%.

 

[Schultz]

Did Jones come back to GB in a trade or as a FA? If I recall he caught a lot of TD s early that year then leveled off.

 

[Half Empty]

Jones was here 2007-13, then Oakland for a year, then 2015, a year that he had his best yards, yards per catch, 2nd best TD and (oddly enough) lowest catch %.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Did Jones come back to GB in a trade or as a FA? If I recall he caught a lot of TD s early that year then leveled off.

Interestingly enough, the Raiders released Jones right after the 2015 draft. The Giants signed him a few months later and then released him at the final cutdown, at which point the Packers resigned him.

 

[gopkrs]

Interestingly enough, the Raiders released Jones right after the 2015 draft. The Giants signed him a few months later and then released him at the final cutdown, at which point the Packers resigned him.

Sometimes it seems like The Packers get enamored with a player in the draft and then bring him in no matter how many other teams cut him. Actually I don't even know what Jones you are talking about.