A tale of two GM's.

Pokerbrat2000

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Let's see....The Packers finished 2014 4 minutes short of being in the SB, are returning their entire starting offense, signed their top two FA's and are patiently awaiting prices to come down on the rest of the FA's, the draft and all the changes between then and opening day.......where and when is the sky falling?
 

Mondio

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At this point, if people cant tell that Ted Thompson is pretty good at his job, there is no hope for them. I try not to waste too much time trying to explain anything to people like that. He's not perfect, but he's among the best in the business. I'd go so far to say he's one of the few the modern standard of general managership has been set by.
 

TJV

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Many NFL GMs are too reckless. Only one is conservative to a fault. But hey the Pack is a heavy favorite to win the woeful NFC North again.
So how would you rank Thompson's record as the 'only GM conservative to a fault'? If every other GM has been more aggressive since 2005, how have they done, on average, vs. Thompson? How many since 2005 still have their jobs? Where do you put him on the list of best GMs in the NFL currently?

Of course Thompson is responsible for all football operations (directly for hiring McCarthy and indirectly for McCarthy's staff) but since you denigrate his personnel acquisition skills, share with us how he was responsible for the loss at Seattle. Or were the personnel he provided good enough to win that game and go onto the Super Bowl?
 
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D

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I'm not so sure ILB is "out of position" for Mathews at this point in his career, could be where he needs to finish up.

I don't see that happening. The Packers don't pay Matthews more than $13 million per season to play ILB, teams can get two or three decent ones at that position for that kind of money.
 

Sunshinepacker

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What solution they come up with at ILB will be interesting. I'm not so sure ILB is "out of position" for Mathews at this point in his career, could be where he needs to finish up.

Just curious what you're basing that thought on. Matthews is 28, is the shelf life on one of the best five linebackers in the NFL only seven years? Despite playing ILB quite a bit he was still ranked the eighth best pass rusher among 3-4 OLBs by PFF (since he played over 50% of snaps at OLB they classify him as such). So, based on last season at least, it would seem like he's still got a little something left in the tank.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I think it's silly to think Thompson isn't an excellent GM. I also think it's silly to think he's perfect. MMQB roundtable this past week mentioned that Thompson declined a bunch of trade proposals that were brought to him by Schneider. Could the Packers have potentially been better if Thompson was occasionally more aggressive? Yeah, but they also could have been saddled with bad contracts. Either way, even in the most critical analysis, is it really that bad to have the fourth or fifth best GM in the NFL?
 

Clev44

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Brandon Spikes is great at stopping the run but you have to partner him with an ILB capable of covering RBs and TEs.

I would be excited to sign him and get Eric Kendricks in the draft.

Excellent run stopper, but we rarely play base 3-4 where he would play. I don't see TT paying him 3 million a year to play 20 plays a game or less. That's why I don't see him as a viable option.
 
H

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I think it's too early to be that negative about the 2015 defense. Normally I reserve judgement on the Packers offseason moves (or any other teams as a matter) until after the draft.

I have to admit though that I don't think Thompson will be able to address every single position of need on the defensive side of the ball in the draft.

As I've posted in another thread I would be disappointed if he won't sign any free agents to at least upgrade the ILB position but I'm still holding out hope something will get done in the next few weeks.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Thompson take some shots on FAs of the Muir/Hargrove/Mulligan variety...minimum salary vets who might (or might not) make the roster. Look for low signing bonus / minimum guys with warts.

Other than that, there are a few incumbents he'll be looking to get back. I think Raji will get signed. Kuhn probably. Maybe Flynn. Maybe Lattimore.

The free agent class is now trimmed down to undistinguished guys or decent players up in years.

Teams are still shuffling the deck chairs a bit and there might be a few cap casualties yet to come. But the pickings have gotten thin.
 
D

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Excellent run stopper, but we rarely play base 3-4 where he would play. I don't see TT paying him 3 million a year to play 20 plays a game or less. That's why I don't see him as a viable option.

The Packers play with two ILBs in nickel though so Spikes would be on the field for all plays aside of obvious passing downs when the Packers line up in their dime package.
 

DOCTORAPK

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I think this article really missed the boat on Seattle though. It said that Seattle doesn't have any future cap problems on the horizon and that's just simply not true. While they might have $44 million in cap projected for 2016 at the money, they need to re-sign Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner and that's going to be costing probably somewhere around $30, maybe even $35 million in cap space eaten up. This trade for Graham, in my mindm was a one-two year thing to help keep their window open to win a Super Bowl when they still have Wilson for cheap. It has big short term advantages, but in the longer sense of things (and by which I mean only two/three years from now) it'll not be a good situation. They WILL have cap issues and they won't have had their first round pick the last two years to fill in those holes and have the cheap quality young guys that allowed them to rise up in the first place. They could easily experience a San Francisco level of decline in a few seasons.

While I'd like to see Thompson go for it a little bit more this offseason than he probably will and grab a few veteran defensive guys, I think his approach is the far superior one. We ought to have beaten Seattle last season if not for some of the most inexplicable and unfathomably boneheaded things I've ever seen. Next season is shaping up like us against them again. But the season after that? It'll be us and someone one else. And the year after is us and someone else. It takes a lot of luck and circumstance to actually win a Super Bowl. Thompson is insuring we are one of the 4-5 teams each year that has the opportunity to be in position to win it with his process. I couldn't be more satisfied with him. Now, I'm just hoping for a little bit more luck....
Aaron Rodgers, not TT, IMO is insuring that we're one of those 4-5 teams ..... he goes down ..... and so do the Packers. "Draft and Develop", to me, seem to be words that refer to a nebulous concept that TT actually has a solid, uniform plan for what he does. Those words, "Draft and Develop", could be used to refer to what he found with Randall Cobb, a number 2 pick. But I can't even remember who he drafted AHEAD of Cobb. What? No "Draft and Develop" there? He drafted Hawk at #5. What did TT develop him into? A journeyman player? How about Harrell? He developed him into a player always hurt? Or another #2, Brian Brohm.....he developed him into an "absolutely terrified" player on the field, who can't even play in the NFL? Raji, a short fireplug, who's run out of gas. But a #9. Again, "developed" into what?
Rodgers isn't acquiring the players. Two players cast off by others, in recent years have saved GB's defensive "bacon". Woodson, and now Peppers. But who has TT found for LB? Putting one's faith in TT to find LB's to fill the middle....is very overly optomistic.

One last thing, other teams can, and will find and exploit our weaknesses .....Hawk being beaten so many times these past few years on pass coverage...and the "coup de grace"....the "Fake" ....and the resulting TD in the NFC Championship Game, burning a player who always tended to be out of position. The Packer's coaches didn't see it ....but Seattle's did. I guess we didn't "draft and develop" that guy adequately?
 

Carl

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Aaron Rodgers, not TT, IMO is insuring that we're one of those 4-5 teams ..... he goes down ..... and so do the Packers. "Draft and Develop", to me, seem to be words that refer to a nebulous concept that TT actually has a solid, uniform plan for what he does. Those words, "Draft and Develop", could be used to refer to what he found with Randall Cobb, a number 2 pick. But I can't even remember who he drafted AHEAD of Cobb. What? No "Draft and Develop" there? He drafted Hawk at #5. What did TT develop him into? A journeyman player? How about Harrell? He developed him into a player always hurt? Or another #2, Brian Brohm.....he developed him into an "absolutely terrified" player on the field, who can't even play in the NFL? Raji, a short fireplug, who's run out of gas. But a #9. Again, "developed" into what?
Rodgers isn't acquiring the players. Two players cast off by others, in recent years have saved GB's defensive "bacon". Woodson, and now Peppers. But who has TT found for LB? Putting one's faith in TT to find LB's to fill the middle....is very overly optomistic.

One last thing, other teams can, and will find and exploit our weaknesses .....Hawk being beaten so many times these past few years on pass coverage...and the "coup de grace"....the "Fake" ....and the resulting TD in the NFC Championship Game, burning a player who always tended to be out of position. The Packer's coaches didn't see it ....but Seattle's did. I guess we didn't "draft and develop" that guy adequately?

You act like a GM should not have any busts ever. Let's fire TT and find a GM who never picks a bust since they exist...

Also, if you get a star in Cobb 2nd round, it's really not a big deal if the first rounder is a bust. League wide success rate is 1/3 for picks. If you use Cobb and Sherrod as an example, you're actually pointing out a success rate of 50%. Using such a small sample size doesn't help your case there.
 

Carl

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Aaron Rodgers, not TT, IMO is insuring that we're one of those 4-5 teams ..... he goes down ..... and so do the Packers. "Draft and Develop", to me, seem to be words that refer to a nebulous concept that TT actually has a solid, uniform plan for what he does. Those words, "Draft and Develop", could be used to refer to what he found with Randall Cobb, a number 2 pick. But I can't even remember who he drafted AHEAD of Cobb. What? No "Draft and Develop" there? He drafted Hawk at #5. What did TT develop him into? A journeyman player? How about Harrell? He developed him into a player always hurt? Or another #2, Brian Brohm.....he developed him into an "absolutely terrified" player on the field, who can't even play in the NFL? Raji, a short fireplug, who's run out of gas. But a #9. Again, "developed" into what?
Rodgers isn't acquiring the players. Two players cast off by others, in recent years have saved GB's defensive "bacon". Woodson, and now Peppers. But who has TT found for LB? Putting one's faith in TT to find LB's to fill the middle....is very overly optomistic.

One last thing, other teams can, and will find and exploit our weaknesses .....Hawk being beaten so many times these past few years on pass coverage...and the "coup de grace"....the "Fake" ....and the resulting TD in the NFC Championship Game, burning a player who always tended to be out of position. The Packer's coaches didn't see it ....but Seattle's did. I guess we didn't "draft and develop" that guy adequately?

Hawk had to cover a guy or Rush the passer on that fake. He didn't have a chance. Can't do both.

If you read about the play, the Seawahks coaches ran the fake due to Jones, not Hawk too.
 

DaveRoller

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They're also a favorite to win the Superbowl this year also but ya know.... Details

Who would u have liked TT to sign to transform this defense? No great ILB hit the market and only a handfull of meaningful DL hit the market this year.

If TT pursued and signed even 10% of the FA's that fans have clamored for over the years this team would be horrible and yes fans that think "only" making the NFC Championship game means the season was an utter failure and anything out side of a Superbowl victory is a bust are spoiled fans just looking to complain

Actually, no the Pack is not the Super Bowl favorites, though they are among the top 3:
Seattle Seahawks 6/1
New England Patriots 13/2
Green Bay Packers 7/1

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/futures/.

Interesting that NE and Seattle are not refusing to acquire veteran players despite making the Super Bowl.

And, of course, the right answer to who would you like TT to have obtained for the correct-thinking Packer fan, is NO ONE. There is not a single other NFL player who hit free agency or was available via trade who could have helped the Packers.

Just like there was not a single available Inside Linebacker last offseason was better than AJ Hawk or Brad Jones and during the 2013 offseason there was no Safety who possibly could have been better than Jerron McMillian or M.D. Jennings.

Do you really think there is not a single NFL player who could improve the pathetic 32nd rated Special Teams unit at the very least?
 
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DOCTORAPK

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Hawk had to cover a guy or Rush the passer on that fake. He didn't have a chance. Can't do both.

If you read about the play, the Seawahks coaches ran the fake due to Jones, not Hawk too.
If you read about the Seattle description of that play, they were looking for that guy. I couldn't remember his name. They said he almost always abandoned his position and went for the block. So they were going to go for whatever side he lined up on. I never said that guy was Hawk, who, no matter what you say, will I ever consider to be, nor did he ever play like like anything more than a journeyman.
On the NFC Championship game.....Seatlles coaches saw what "Jones" was doing wrong and exploited it. Our coaches did not....and TD Seattle....

As for TT....he is not a Saint. Klemm, O'Dwyer, Colledge, Brohm, Harrell, Frank Taylor, Saturday, etc. ....he's taken flyers on all kinds of guys who bombed. Lob a hundred grenades....and some are bound to hit home....but a whole lot are DUDS! Please don't tell me no one has done better. Like I've said before.....if 3/4 of the league hadn't passed on Rodgers, thinking he would be injury prone....the Packers fortunes would be a whole lot worse.

BTW....in the Harrell fiasco year.....it was known the Packers were looking to draft Marshawn Lynch out of Cal. Buffalo traded up to get ahead of the Pack and drafted him. He ended up with Seattle. Look what he's done.....now look what TT's first round handiwork from that year (Harrell) has done.....nothing.
 

DaveRoller

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Hawk had to cover a guy or Rush the passer on that fake. He didn't have a chance. Can't do both.

If you read about the play, the Seawahks coaches ran the fake due to Jones, not Hawk too.

Actually, when I read about the play, I learned the Seahawks attacked Hawk all game(on the fake field goal and when he appeared on the D).

AJ's responsibility was to stay with the receiver, plain and simple. It was one last terrible play by a player who should not have been on the roster in 2014 and probably not in 2013.

http://gnb.scout.com/story/1506816-hawk-was-target-of-ryan-s-fake
 

DOCTORAPK

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Actually, no the Pack is not the Super Bowl favorites, though they are among the top 3:
Seattle Seahawks 6/1
New England Patriots 13/2
Green Bay Packers 7/1

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/futures/.

Interesting that NE and Seattle are not refusing to acquire veteran players despite making the Super Bowl.

And, of course, the right answer to who would you like TT to have obtained for the correct-thinking Packer fan, is NO ONE. There is not a single other NFL player who hit free agency or was available via trade who could have helped the Packers.


Just like there was not a single available Inside Linebacker last offseason was better than AJ Hawk or Brad Jones and during the 2013 offseason there was no Safety who possibly could have been better than Jerron McMillian or M.D. Jennings.

Do you really think there is not a single NFL player who could improve the pathetic 32nd rated Special Teams unit at the very least?

Good one...Thank You....lolol
As any thinking Packer fan would say it...."The team can't be improved upon in any way.
But.....why in the Hell don't we win (or at least play in) The Super Bowl every year????,"
 

RRyder

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Actually, no the Pack is not the Super Bowl favorites, though they are among the top 3:
Seattle Seahawks 6/1
New England Patriots 13/2
Green Bay Packers 7/1

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/futures/.

Interesting that NE and Seattle are not refusing to acquire veteran players despite making the Super Bowl.

And, of course, the right answer to who would you like TT to have obtained for the correct-thinking Packer fan, is NO ONE. There is not a single other NFL player who hit free agency or was available via trade who could have helped the Packers.

Just like there was not a single available Inside Linebacker last offseason was better than AJ Hawk or Brad Jones and during the 2013 offseason there was no Safety who possibly could have been better than Jerron McMillian or M.D. Jennings.

Do you really think there is not a single NFL player who could improve the pathetic 32nd rated Special Teams unit at the very least?

I said "a" favorite not "the" favorite.

And signing players n filling out the roster for special teams generally are FA signings that happen AFTER the draft.

Way to go on the NE and Seattle references also. Its not like 2 years ago people were using SF as the gold standard and saying we should be proactive like them and we can see how thats working out for them. NE has space because they had some pretty big salaries come off the books that they now have to replace and Seattle wont be quite as active after Wilson gets his deal.

Unless theres a player out there you really think can make an impact on D then at this point its prolly in our best interest to see how the draft falls for us and the sign a Guion level FA or two but simply needlessly spending because certain fans only see that we're "only" retaining our own players as standing pat while other teams are "improving" by spending in FA as a sign that TT is being too conservative and that he should "go for it" is simply foolish. Guess signing the top WR on the market and the best Tackle available isn't good enough because they weren't wearing another teams colors last year
 

DaveRoller

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So how would you rank Thompson's record as the 'only GM conservative to a fault'? If every other GM has been more aggressive since 2005, how have they done, on average, vs. Thompson? How many since 2005 still have their jobs? Where do you put him on the list of best GMs in the NFL currently?

Of course Thompson is responsible for all football operations (directly for hiring McCarthy and indirectly for McCarthy's staff) but since you denigrate his personnel acquisition skills, share with us how he was responsible for the loss at Seattle. Or were the personnel he provided good enough to win that game and go onto the Super Bowl?

TT is a top GM ... at assessing college talent and drafting same. He hit an all-time home run in drafting Aaron Rodgers, which was neither an easy or obvious selection. He has also hit on a number of players, especially in the 2nd round, that contribute mightily to the team's success -- not too mention a few undrafted free agents.

TT has also been excellent at ensuring the team's salary cap is manageable. Letting players like Wells, House, Jennings, etc. go was not easy but it was smart.

TT also hit another great home run in 2006 when he signed C. Woodson, who gave the Defense an identity and big play ability that was sorely lacking.

However, TT's general disdain for acquiring veteran talent from other teams and overpaying/overvaluing certain of his own players has cost the Packers. The easiest examples are Safety in 2013 and Inside Linebacker in 2014 -- there are more. I would also point to the chronic lack of "talent" on special teams (especially coverage/KO returner) even though the primary responsibility for the poor play of that unit has to rest with the coaches, including McCarthy.

I also confess to being one of those "spoiled" Packer fans who does not sufficiently celebrate NFC North Titles as I view the Lions and Vikings as bottom tier franchises (one of which has never been to a Super Bowl and another that has never won one and has not been to one in nearly 40 years) and the Bears at a crossroads due to their disastrous QB situation.

Now don't get me wrong, TT had an awesome 2014. HHCD and Adams were both great choices and R. Rodgers was decent but it was Linsley's play made that draft special. Yet, it was the signing of Peppers (and to a lesser extent Guion) in addition to the play of the rookies that permitted the Packers to advance to the NFC Title Game. The players discussed the leadership/enthusiasm Peppers & Guion brought to a moribund unit, underscoring the lack of such a presence in prior years.

Relying virtually solely on the draft (as TT had done for several years prior to last year and appears to be doing again this year) is foreclosing important sources of adding talent and is one of the key reasons the Packers have advanced to just 1 Super Bowl during TT's 10 years on the job. If we did not have the best QB in the NLF, the MVP in 2011 and 2014, I'd readily agree we should not expect to reach more than 1 Super Bowl.

Question for those who bristle at any negative discussion relating to TT, if the Pack only gets to 1 Super Bowl with Favre and ARod as his QBs, will you continue to consider TT to be unworthy of criticism? And if there is a point that the Pack's failure to reach the big game with ARod at QB that renders TT worthy of criticism can you let the rest of us know when that would begin?
 
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PackerDNA

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Heh, ain't got the time right now, but this is a conversation I've been looking for here for a while. Dave Roller, hang tough buddy. You've opened every can of beans on the shelf!
 

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Why is that any time the Packers are criticized in any fashion all of you come out of the woodwork with your snide, ridiculous, sarcastic "TT must be a terrible GM" comments even though no one here even remotely said that?
 
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HardRightEdge

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no I meant hold your breath.
I just thought I'd point out that you stuttered with the #11 and #12 posts...they're redundant and #11 appears to put your words in my mouth. You wouldn't want that.
 
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DOCTORAPK

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It was so long ago ....I can't remember it that well .....but Aaron was in some TV studio ante-room on NFL draft day with a small group of other elite players who were expected to go high in the draft. After a while ....They were all gone and Aaron was in a chair shell-shocked. He gamely put a forced smile on his face when it was announced that Green Bay had chosen him at number 24. So many feared he would be injury prone. A "wise" pick .....is one way to look at it. A "mistake" by 20 odd other teams is another way to view it. No one has a crystal ball, but if someone in some other team's draft war-room had had one ......Aaron would have been long gone. True, THANKFULLY AR turned out fantastic! But what if he had been another Jerry Tagge? Ouch....another #1 thrown away. TT = terrible....no. Lombardi, or even Belichek, or even a Pete Carroll = no, not that either. More like a Jeff Fisher, (with the goof from Texas at QB. Hey, a little better than Jeff, actually....lolol). or Phil Bengtson, maybe...
 

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