2019 - Defensive Line Discussions

[tynimiller]

So with all the already discussions intertwining (Lowry signing/Daniels leaving/FA signings....everything) I wanted just a single post to discuss the big boys along the Defensive side of the ball.

Presently the DL listed are:

Montravius Adams - 3rd Year (Auburn)
Fadol Brown - 2nd Year (Mississippi)
Kenny Clark - 4th Year (UCLA)
Kingsley Keke - Rookie (Texas A&M)
Tyler Lancaster - 2nd Year (Northwestern)
James Looney - 2nd Year (California)
Dean Lowry - 4th Year (Northwestern)
Olive Sagapolu - Rookie (Wisconsin)
Deon Simon - 2nd Year (Northwestern State)

Released - Mike Daniels

 

[tynimiller]

Love the sound of Adams finally making strides...I was very high on him when drafted, but has been a major let down:

https://www.packers.com/news/mike-pettine-s-words-pushed-montravius-adams-to-be-better

 

[El Guapo]

I remember Adams' rookie camp report, that the veterans were shocked at how good he was - that he played more like a seasoned vet. Then he got injured and barely played in 2017. It sounds like he's heading in the right direction but we will see.

 

[tynimiller]

I see Clark, Lowry, Adams and Lancaster as the clear top 4...with Adams and Lancaster battling for that 3rd slot.

If we keep only 5, I do believe Keke has it. If we go 6 deep, I predict Fadol shows enough.

 

[gbgary]

they're a lesser group without daniels. we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that someone besides clark has a career year.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

This is ....... I can't....... I just dont.......

Wtf gute?

I'm going to call the obvious right now. If Clark goes down, the season is effed. The olbs Wont do squat. The Secondary will be sliced and diced. The dline will look like a total rebuild next year.

Adams hasn't shown crap. Lowry hasn't shown me to be a starter. Its a mind blowing lapse of reason. Totally blowing the season imo.

We were weak with Daniels. Clark and Daniels were the two. The rest are not capable of leading a defensive line. Its a bunch of young guys who havnt shown anything. And now the season rests on them....

Clark is now Clark island. He will be lucky to survive the season. Let alone be impactful for the playoffs.

Dumb. Just pure crap strategy. Lafleur is going to get pettine fired. And look like a total *****. Olbs getting stuffed like peppers/Perry/and Mathews again. Lame.

 

[OldSchool101]

The DL reminds me of the WR group. They both have one standout star and the rest are talented but unproven (for the most part). They both also have a talented support group. Graham at receiver and La’Darius at DL as an example. In my dream world we would’ve resigned a one Mo Wilkerson and he’d be 100% healed up. Then I would’ve been super ok.

That said, I’m less concerned with that list of Defenders. Mike Daniels peaked a few years ago, but I believe he is in his twilight years while several of these guys are ascending into stardom to take his role. I’m not concerned at all really.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

The DL reminds me of the WR group. They both have one standout star and the rest are talented but unproven (for the most part). They both also have a talented support group. Graham at receiver and La’Darius at DL as an example. In my dream world we would’ve resigned a one Mo Wilkerson and he’d be 100% healed up. Then I would’ve been super ok.

That said, I’m less concerned with that list of Defenders. Mike Daniels peaked a few years ago, but I believe he is in his twilight years while several of these guys are ascending into stardom to take his role. I’m not concerned at all really.

That seems to be the sentiment. And guys are saying the dline is doing well....

I'm not buying it for a second... Gary, the free agents.... Yea they will be potent. Bit the big guys up front have to tear the oline up. Or I'm fairly confident our new pass rushing weapons will be absorbed.

When we brought in mo Wilkerson two years ago... With Clark and Daniels.... That's a dline that would open up the lbs.

So now we are banking Adams takes the next step to being a serviceable starter? Lets let that slide for a second...
Who is taking his place on the depth chart?
A rookie? Or one of our olbs?

I hope they got something up their sleeve...

 

[OldSchool101]

That seems to be the sentiment. And guys are saying the dline is doing well....

I'm not buying it for a second... Gary, the free agents.... Yea they will be potent. Bit the big guys up front have to tear the oline up. Or I'm fairly confident our new pass rushing weapons will be absorbed.

When we brought in mo Wilkerson two years ago... With Clark and Daniels.... That's a dline that would open up the lbs.

So now we are banking Adams takes the next step to being a serviceable starter? Lets let that slide for a second...
Who is taking his place on the depth chart?
A rookie? Or one of our olbs?

I hope they got something up their sleeve...

La’Darius Smith can play D Line and he’s formidable too. I think a lot of people forget that. I still think people have largely underestimated Rashan’s potential to play DE, maybe because he’s listed as an OLB. but he might possibly need a year to develop whereas Smith can get right in there. Gary is the the perfect fit for the Jack role IMO.

 

[PackAttack12]

This is ....... I can't....... I just dont.......

Wtf gute?

I'm going to call the obvious right now. If Clark goes down, the season is effed. The olbs Wont do squat. The Secondary will be sliced and diced. The dline will look like a total rebuild next year.

Adams hasn't shown crap. Lowry hasn't shown me to be a starter. Its a mind blowing lapse of reason. Totally blowing the season imo.

We were weak with Daniels. Clark and Daniels were the two. The rest are not capable of leading a defensive line. Its a bunch of young guys who havnt shown anything. And now the season rests on them....

Clark is now Clark island. He will be lucky to survive the season. Let alone be impactful for the playoffs.

Dumb. Just pure crap strategy. Lafleur is going to get pettine fired. And look like a total *****. Olbs getting stuffed like peppers/Perry/and Mathews again. Lame.

Such a refreshingly optimistic take.

 

[XPack]

La’Darius Smith can play D Line and he’s formidable too. I think a lot of people forget that. I still think people have largely underestimated Rashan’s potential to play DE, maybe because he’s listed as an OLB. but he might possibly need a year to develop whereas Smith can get right in there. Gary is the the perfect fit for the Jack role IMO.

I don't think we can approach a season with "can also play there" kind of starters.

..........Dean Lowry..........Kenny Clary........Rashan Gary.........
Za'Darius Smith...Blake Martinez....Oren Burks...Preston Smith

is how I think we'll line up. Perhaps Adams for Gary can be considered too.

Neither Lowry nor Gary/Adams have any track record worth mentioning and it comes down to Clark again to hold up the line.

This is an interesting take too:

https://lastwordonprofootball.com/2019/07/30/mike-daniels/

Pettine runs a very nontraditional 3-4 defensive alignment. This year, it really might look more like a 4-3. The Packers only bring back two established down linemen from last year. Lowry and Clark should see a lot of work on early downs and obvious run situations. Third-year pro Montravius Adams is the next man up. He brings just one sack, 22 tackles, and one start in two seasons but has drawn rave reviews the last two off-seasons. He will be competing with undrafted second-year pro Tyler Lancaster and fifth-round pick Kingsley Keke for playing time next to Clark and Lowry. There is a very good chance that only one or two of these five players will be on the field for most snaps. Pettine is already experimenting with sets that include four outside linebackers. In these lineups, Gary and Z will play the three and five techniques with Clark at the nose. Then Preston and fourth-year pro Kyler Fackrell will align on the edges. This gives the defense flexibility to combat both the run and the pass.

 

[El Guapo]

When we brought in mo Wilkerson two years ago... With Clark and Daniels.... That's a dline that would open up the lbs.

Where did that get us? I was excited for that lineup as well but they didn't do squat when healthy. When Mo went down, there wasn't much of a change. Pettine and Gute seem to be going in a different direction in terms of size and body types. I share your concern about the no-name list of guys around Kenny Clark, but I'm not going to howl at the moon yet. Lowry reminds me a bit of Aaron Kampman, and maybe Gute sees a future there as well. I'll hold my criticism until mid-season.

 

[tynimiller]

Where did that get us? I was excited for that lineup as well but they didn't do squat when healthy. When Mo went down, there wasn't much of a change. Pettine and Gute seem to be going in a different direction in terms of size and body types. I share your concern about the no-name list of guys around Kenny Clark, but I'm not going to howl at the moon yet. Lowry reminds me a bit of Aaron Kampman, and maybe Gute sees a future there as well. I'll hold my criticism until mid-season.

I concur, far too early to christen them as capable or incapable. Lot of upside was shown out of Lancaster second half of season...Lowry proved himself to be a contributor on any roster IMO...and here's to the fingers being crossed Adams has woke up.

This group is the most interesting outside WRs behind Adams for me to watch and see what happens.

 

[Sanguine camper]

This is ....... I can't....... I just dont.......

Wtf gute?

I'm going to call the obvious right now. If Clark goes down, the season is effed. The olbs Wont do squat. The Secondary will be sliced and diced. The dline will look like a total rebuild next year.

Adams hasn't shown crap. Lowry hasn't shown me to be a starter. Its a mind blowing lapse of reason. Totally blowing the season imo.

We were weak with Daniels. Clark and Daniels were the two. The rest are not capable of leading a defensive line. Its a bunch of young guys who havnt shown anything. And now the season rests on them....

Clark is now Clark island. He will be lucky to survive the season. Let alone be impactful for the playoffs.

Dumb. Just pure crap strategy. Lafleur is going to get pettine fired. And look like a total *****. Olbs getting stuffed like peppers/Perry/and Mathews again. Lame.

Totally agree with the premise that 2 to 6 are not to be relied upon and could cost the season if Clark goes down. Is there a weaker 2 to 6 d line in the league? The season could easily now rest on Adams, Lowry and the other camp bodies on the list. That's scary.

 

[mradtke66]

..........Dean Lowry..........Kenny Clary........Rashan Gary.........
Za'Darius Smith...Blake Martinez....Oren Burks...Preston Smith

is how I think we'll line up. Perhaps Adams for Gary can be considered too.

A couple of problems with that lineup.

1. We'll be in nickel more than base. So I'd expect more of Za'Darius and Clark getting the lions share of snaps as the two defensive tackles in that alignment.

2. When we do line up in base, the Right Defensive End/Tackle is more of a 3-technique role in most defenses. Gary would be more likely to be an OLB. If he is needed to line up with his hand in the dirt, Left End tends to be the 5 technique player, ie, replacing Lowry.

3. If it's a run down, something like 3rd and 1, I'd expect a heavy-heavy set with Lancaster out there. Two NT type bodies could clog up the middle better in that situation.

I'd guess Adams is likely the player they are penciling in for the Right End position, but again, that's just a guess.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Where did that get us? I was excited for that lineup as well but they didn't do squat when healthy. When Mo went down, there wasn't much of a change. Pettine and Gute seem to be going in a different direction in terms of size and body types. I share your concern about the no-name list of guys around Kenny Clark, but I'm not going to howl at the moon yet. Lowry reminds me a bit of Aaron Kampman, and maybe Gute sees a future there as well. I'll hold my criticism until mid-season.

Disagree. Our lbs were killing it with no Wilkerson out there. And when he went down yhe whole defense became less potent. By seasons end Daniels and Clark were both messed up. And the defense collapsed.

Need depth. Quality depth . for those big guys....

 

[mradtke66]

Disagree. Our lbs were killing it with no Wilkerson out there. And when he went down yhe whole defense became less potent. By seasons end Daniels and Clark were both messed up. And the defense collapsed.

Need depth. Quality depth . for those big guys....

In three games?

Mo got injured midway through week three. Poor sample set. Mo may have turned into a great addition, but claiming that he was the difference for 2.5 games, never making it to 70% of snaps played? Incredibly premature. Wishful thinking?

Any by week 6, Lowry and Daniels start swapping back and forth for who's taking more snaps.

I think many remember Daniels for how good he was, not how good he finished 2018. He's probably only got one more year left of good play. What's the old saying, "Better to cut a player a year to early rather than a year too late."

Lowry is an adequate starter. Possibly even above average, but it's hard to tell exactly. He hasn't gotten as many snaps as a 3-technique rusher. He's a good, strong-side 5-technique DE. His Backup is (likely) Keke, but that's a guess. Not entirely sure who projects to backup 5T.

Clark is Clark. Ascending player. Clearly the best player of the group. Lancaster is the presumed backup.

Adams is my guess for the starting RDE. He's the "risky" projection, but keeping Daniels at 30 and a foot injury was probably just as risky. Brown or Looney might project as the backups, but it's hard to say. I don't know enough about them to say that confidently.

So the top 4 are obvious to me:

Lowry, Clark, Adams, Lancaster. Of those 4, only Adams is the gamble. The rest have shown a lot of solid football.


From the remaining 5 DL currently on the roster, we have to find 1 more guy and no more. Maybe keep 2 if their performance demands they stick around.

Carrying 5 DL, ( and lets be honest, they're really ALL defensive tackles in a 3-4. Typical 4-3 base teams only carry 5 defensive tackles) is about right. And with Smith and/or Gary chewing up a few snaps at 3-technique here and there, 5 be their max. Especially if no one steps up and demands a spot on the roster with their play.

Is this a group of world beaters? No. Average without Clark? Probably. I'd say Above Average to Good with Clark.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While I understand there's reason for concern about the defensive line a lot of fans don't seem to realize that Lowry has actually performed at a pretty high level and Lancaster showed promise late last season as well. The Packers definitely don't feature an elite group at the position but if Adams is truly the most improved player on that side of the ball as reported by the coaching staff the team will be fine.

Disagree. Our lbs were killing it with no Wilkerson out there. And when he went down yhe whole defense became less potent. By seasons end Daniels and Clark were both messed up. And the defense collapsed.

The Packers allowed an average of 27.7 points in the three games Wilkerson played in, 2.7 points above their season average.

 

[tynimiller]

I think vastly too many fell in love with Daniels the guy like I did...it was tough but 2018 began to show me the end needed to happen. The dude has an edge to his play I love, he also had a sincere love for the Green Bay community...but neither of those things should govern decisions unfortunately.

I also think vastly too many have no clue what Lowry has done and shown...dude has done nothing but continue to improve. Lancaster had one of the best final stretches of big guys in the league...at minimum he will be a solid backup in middle.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think vastly too many fell in love with Daniels the guy like I did...it was tough but 2018 began to show me the end needed to happen. The dude has an edge to his play I love, he also had a sincere love for the Green Bay community...but neither of those things should govern decisions unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong, Daniels was a great player for the majority of his tenure in Green Bay. But with him regressing last year and coming off a season ending injury it was the right time to move on.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Gute blowing his cap like crazy. Already making bad decisions cutting core guys to pay the piper.
Daniels was what? 30 years old? 31?

I'm not saying we resign him next year. But we Havnt replaced him yet for this year.

Clark island will fail just like raji island failed. The. Gb brass completely disregards the value of the Big Boys on the dline. Its their glitch.

Fire Daniels? Bank on keke and Adams breaking out? I don't even know half these guys names yet. You expect me to be comfortable Dropping Daniels before camp just to resign Lowry early?

Makes no sense unless you plan to have Clark island. And 4 olbs running around. And expect the tweener safetys to clean up the mess.
Good olines own that. For good olines thats going to be like beating up on their little brother. And this is the plan we go in with.... Good grief.

I just looked at the 31-0 loss to the lions week 17.... Adams and Lowry were starting. And Lancaster was at nose. The only difference from that to our starting dline now is Clark....

And what in the hell happens when he needs a rest or gets injured?!?

It didnt have to be this way. Savage trade up wasn't needed. Didnt need Amos and a big splash rookie....
We didnt need two big splash olbs ,and our highest pick in years ,to go to another de/olb hybrid. We didnt need three, on top of our sack leader fackrell.... Hoarding safetys and olbs like I hoard vintage redlines... Its ridiculous!

But seriously. That first round should have went to oline and dline. End of story. After the free agents we picked up....

Our lines are weak. No depth. And losing Daniels to save cap was a terrible move.... Keep Mathews and Cobb??? Drop Daniels? We have a big ol change of strategy since last year?

 

[AmishMafia]

Gute blowing his cap like crazy. Already making bad decisions cutting core guys to pay the piper.
Daniels was what? 30 years old? 31?

I'm not saying we resign him next year. But we Havnt replaced him yet for this year.

Clark island will fail just like raji island failed. The. Gb brass completely disregards the value of the Big Boys on the dline. Its their glitch.

Fire Daniels? Bank on keke and Adams breaking out? I don't even know half these guys names yet. You expect me to be comfortable Dropping Daniels before camp just to resign Lowry early?

Makes no sense unless you plan to have Clark island. And 4 olbs running around. And expect the tweener safetys to clean up the mess.
Good olines own that. For good olines thats going to be like beating up on their little brother. And this is the plan we go in with.... Good grief.

I just looked at the 31-0 loss to the lions week 17.... Adams and Lowry were starting. And Lancaster was at nose. The only difference from that to our starting dline now is Clark....

And what in the hell happens when he needs a rest or gets injured?!?

It didnt have to be this way. Savage trade up wasn't needed. Didnt need Amos and a big splash rookie....
We didnt need two big splash olbs ,and our highest pick in years ,to go to another de/olb hybrid. We didnt need three, on top of our sack leader fackrell.... Hoarding safetys and olbs like I hoard vintage redlines... Its ridiculous!

But seriously. That first round should have went to oline and dline. End of story. After the free agents we picked up....

Our lines are weak. No depth. And losing Daniels to save cap was a terrible move.... Keep Mathews and Cobb??? Drop Daniels? We have a big ol change of strategy since last year?

Your entire premise is wrong. Daniels was not the 2nd best DL even last year. He was arguably already perhaps the 4th or 5th best. Lowry, lancaster and adams had passed him up. You are thinking of 2015 Mike Daniels and not the current version. Add in the factors: a new DC, new scheme, Daniels injury, his age, and FA acquisitions into the equation.


I would have liked to have kept him for his leadership value, but the salary cap savings are too important for the future.

 

[Heyjoe4]

La’Darius Smith can play D Line and he’s formidable too. I think a lot of people forget that. I still think people have largely underestimated Rashan’s potential to play DE, maybe because he’s listed as an OLB. but he might possibly need a year to develop whereas Smith can get right in there. Gary is the the perfect fit for the Jack role IMO.

Daniels will be missed, but at $10 mil for a sub, no thanks.

And you’re right, Smith (and Gary) can both play DL.

I think Daniels has another very good 2, maybe 3 years lefts, but there was no place for him in GB. What is GOOFY is that he wanted to play for a SB contender and he picked Detroit. Maybe he knows something we don’t......

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

Let's just hope our defense can match the divisional revels.
I really got my doubts.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Let's just hope our defense can match the divisional revels.
I really got my doubts.

For dood reason. The bears are solid.

I think Gluten will keep 5 DLs. Part of it for in-game injuries, and a big part because Pettine likes to keep his guys fresh.