2018 Practice Squad Unfolds

[HardRightEdge]

Isn't it a little presumptive to think that they could have just done this? How often do players really successfully change positions like that?

Successfully? Maybe not all that often, but it is attempted all of the time with young players. It's not like you're trying him at QB.

Teams draft DEs that played exclusively with their hand in the dirt in college with the expectation they will stand up in the pros. Safeties become linebackers. OTs become OGs. OGs become Cs. Herb Waters was switched from WR to CB on the fly. The idea that a position change coming out college is pretty common but ruling it out once you've had a chance to work with the guy doesn't make a lot of sense.

Whether the issue with Biegel was the Jones fracture or athletic limitations or a little of both, he clearly was not going to be an effective edge rusher over the long haul. But he is a smart and instinctive player.

So, the Saints claim Biegel off waivers and put him on the PS. They run a 4-3. He's surely not projected as a DE. They see something that makes them think he might be an off-the-ball linebacker. Weak side OLB would seem to be the fit. Regardless of the fit they see, it is a position change no more dramatic than trying him at ILB in a 3-4. Maybe the Packers would have preferred to put him on the PS and perhaps, just perhaps, try the position change. It's not a radical thought. We'll probably never know.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I have a little Ted Thompson I’m me and really hate giving up on guys with talent even when they’ve shown us nothing. I would have made a Rollins a safety this summer and Beigel an ILB and said put up or shut up. I hate moving guys like Rollins to multiple positions. Just say you sucked at corner, here’s another position to focus on and if they can’t do it let them go.

That is the logic that got TT into trouble to begin with "This guy is a great athlete, we can use him somewhere". Sure, that can work out sometimes and people will point to Sam Shields. But Sam was converted from a WR to a CB his final year in College, so at least the process was started early. With Biegel I guess I look at Clay and even though Clay is/was a solid OLB, he was just an average ILB and only because he used his solid OLB techniques to get to the passer from the position on occasion. Again, not saying its impossible for guys to excel at being switched around mid career, but I don't think its as easy as some might think.

 

[Dantés]

Successfully? Maybe not all that often, but it is attempted all of the time with young players. It's not like you're trying him at QB.

Teams draft DEs that played exclusively with their hand in the dirt in college with the expectation they will stand up in the pros. Safeties become linebackers. OTs become OGs. OGs become Cs. Herb Waters was switched from WR to CB on the fly. The idea that a position change coming out college is pretty common but ruling it out once you've had a chance to work with the guy doesn't make a lot of sense.

Whether the issue with Biegel was the Jones fracture or athletic limitations or a little of both, he clearly was not going to be an effective edge rusher over the long haul. But he is a smart and instinctive player.

So, the Saints claim Biegel off waivers and put him on the PS. They run a 4-3. He's surely not projected as a DE. They see something that makes them think he might be an off-the-ball linebacker. Weak side OLB would seem to be the fit. Regardless of the fit they see, it is a position change no more dramatic than trying him at ILB in a 3-4. Maybe the Packers would have preferred to put him on the PS and perhaps, just perhaps, try the position change. It's not a radical thought. We'll probably never know.

I wouldn’t consider the move from 43DE to 34OLB or OT to OG to be as significant. The roles are similar enough that the projection makes sense. The jump from edge to off-ball or vice versa is larger. Not to say it can’t happen, but if the team looks at the guy for two training camps and doesn’t think it’s meant to be, I’m not going to question that.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I had begun to accept it as seemingly inevitable due to the numbers game at WR, but I'm glad they've found a way to keep him.

I'm not at all glad about it. He kept his job by default, presumably returning both punts and KOs, through a combination of cluelessness, the bizarre (Alexander on punts) and general ineffectiveness from the competition, none of which is surprising given the limited or non-existant college return experience from the contenders. Months ago I said, "learn to love him", though that was by default and a prospectus based on the experience of the contenders. In this case, love is relative.

In the KC game Davis fumbled, which is never a good look. At least it was after he fielded the ball and not during the catch which speaks to ball security, something I don't reccall being an issue with him, instead of the more problematic hands issue. But once again, a persistant aggravation for me, he yet again let a punt hit the ground that he could have come up and fair caught. The guy simply does not want to come up into traffic and catch the d*mn thing, which in this case was not all that threatening. The yards lost, or if that ball bounces and hits a blocker, will not show up in the return stats. I actually like him better on KOs; he seems to spot the seam and uses his quickness to redirect if it closes.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I wouldn’t consider the move from 43DE to 34OLB or OT to OG to be as significant. The roles are similar enough that the projection makes sense. The jump from edge to off-ball or vice versa is larger.

I believe you exaggerate and the Saints do as well.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

none of which is surprising given the limited or non-existant college return experience from the contenders.

This actually turned a little light bulb on in my head. How many NFL guys actually did much punt and kickoff returning in college? Much like the NFL, College teams don't usually put their high profile guys back their returning punts and kicks. So unless a guy is really outstanding doing it in college, he may never see the NFL. So finding guys to fill this role well isn't an easy task and seems to be a process of elimation. Maybe like the Packers did with drafting Hunter Bradley as a LS this year, you find the next Devin Hester and spend some draft capital on him?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Still two open spots, what's up with that?

I would not be surprised if they're exploring RB options for the roster. You've got Williams and Montgomery coming off injury. Montogomery is a chronic injury risk, and no Ripkowski for an emergency. If that's the case, they're holding open one of the PS spots for the guy they'd have to cut. There might even be a question about one of those guys availability for week 1.

That RB would be tough get. The prospects would know it could be a two game rent-a-player situation after Jones comes back. It might have to be a snag somebody of a PS they like more than Bouagnon who would be willing to go back to PS at week 3.

 

[Dantés]

I believe you exaggerate and the Saints do as well.

Not so sure how you can say that last part with certainty. They just barely signed him to their P.S.. We have no indication of what they will do with him.

But in any case, it’s not an exaggeration to say that two edge positions and two OL positions are closer than edge and off ball. That should be obvious.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not so sure how you can say that last part with certainty. They just barely signed him to their P.S.. We have no indication of what they will do with him.

Well, he ain't gonna be a 4-3 DE for them, that's for sure. And he could have made the Packers PS.

Just to be clear: I'm not talking about making him into a Pro Bowler or even a starter at a different position. I'm saying he looks like an off-the-ball LB. I said as much after he was drafted based on the college tape, and I've seen nothing to change my mind. For the 3rd. time, the Saints appear to agree that's worth exploring. He could take to it and become a first line backup and ST player at one point. Or he might not. It's possible he takes to it like a fish to water and becomes a starter one day. That would be unusual. But that's what the PS is for, taking a guy that looks like something and then seeing if he is that something.

Or look at this way: What I'm saying is less unusual than putting WR Herb Waters on the PS and coverting him to CB.

 

[Dantés]

Well, he ain't gonna be a 4-3 DE for them, that's for sure. And he could have made the Packers PS.

Just to be clear: I'm not talking about making him into a Pro Bowler or even a starter at a different position. I'm saying he looks like an off-the-ball LB. I said as much after he was drafted based on the college tape, and I've seen nothing to change my mind. For the 3rd. time, the Saints appear to agree that's worth exploring. He could take to it and become a first line backup and ST player at one point. Or he might not. It's possible he takes to it like a fish to water and becomes a starter one day. That would be unusual. But that's what the PS is for, taking a guy that looks like something and then seeing if he is that something.

Or look at this way: What I'm saying is less unusual than putting WR Herb Waters on the PS and coverting him to CB.

“For the 3rd time.” Lol. Let’s not pretend you
ever get tired of repeating yourself.

The Saints could see him as a developmental situational pass rusher or primarily a ST contributor. Or it could be that they see him as an off ball linebacker and maybe they’re right or maybe they’re wrong. My point is simply that I’m not going to indict the Packers for not doing to a position switch when we have literally no indication that it would be a good idea. I’m arrogant, but not that arrogant.

Yes, it would be less unusual than switching a WR to corner. And more unusual than switching a DE to a rush linebacker. So what?

 

[HardRightEdge]

“For the 3rd time.” Lol. Let’s not pretend you ever get tired of repeating yourself.

Who's pretending?

And who's calling the kettle black? No emoji required.

And who said anything about "idicting the Packers". You're confusing me with some Badger fan boy.

I think we're done here.

 

[Dantés]

Who's pretending?

And who's calling the kettle black? No emogi required.

And who said anything about "idicting the Packers". You're confusing me with some Badger fan boy.

I think we're done here.

You sure? If we pretend not to understand the other poster, we could get like three pages of squabble out of this.

 

[yooperpackfan]

I would not be surprised if they're exploring RB options for the roster. You've got Williams and Montgomery coming off injury. Montogomery is a chronic injury risk, and no Ripkowski for an emergency. If that's the case, they're holding open one of the PS spots for the guy they'd have to cut. There might even be a question about one of those guys availability for week 1.

That RB would be tough get. The prospects would know it could be a two game rent-a-player situation after Jones comes back. It might have to be a snag somebody of a PS they like more than Bouagnon who would be willing to go back to PS at week 3.

I just heard that they signed a RB from Cowboys PS.

 

[XPack]

I just heard that they signed a RB from Cowboys PS.

Darius Jackson.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The PS is full....for now.

The Packers added two more players to the practice squad Monday, completing the group after signing eight Sunday. The new additions were safety Marwin Evans and cornerback Tony Brown.

Does the signing of Brown mean the Herb Waters experiment is over?

 

[HardRightEdge]

How many NFL guys actually did much punt and kickoff returning in college?

Let's take a look.

Here are last season's punt returners sorted by number of returns to identify guys most regular in the role:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/puntReturns

1. Erickson - 24 returns as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/alex-erickson-1.html
2. Sherels - 17 returns over 3 years, 15 as a sophomore - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/marcus-sherels-1.html
3. Lockett - 32 returns over 3 years, 21 as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tyler-lockett-1.html
4. Jackson - 46 returns over 3 years, 44 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/adoree-jackson-1.html
5. Cooper - 36 returns over 3 years, 27 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/pharoh-cooper-1.html
6. Taylor - 58 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/trent-taylor-2.html
6. Peppers - 39 over 3 years, 38 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jabrill-peppers-1.html
8. Switzer - 99 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ryan-switzer-1.html
8. Agnew - 17 returns all in his senior year -http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3061612/jamal-agnew
8. Cohen - 1 return

With the exception of Cohen, all of these guys showed something and most had the aggregate equivalent of a full season or more.

Somebody else can look at the KO returners if so inclined. I would not be surprised me if the KO guys had less college experience. Punt returning involves a more difficult and subtle set of skills.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I just heard that they signed a RB from Cowboys PS.

41 minutes ago courtesy of Demovsky, to the roster not the PS. That was not a hard call, really.

"The Packers are signing former Dallas Cowboys RB Darius Jackson to their roster, a source confirmed. Jackson, a sixth-round pick 2016, has not carried in an NFL regular-season game."

 

[HardRightEdge]

The PS is full....for now.

The Packers added two more players to the practice squad Monday, completing the group after signing eight Sunday. The new additions were safety Marwin Evans and cornerback Tony Brown.

Does the signing of Brown mean the Herb Waters experiment is over?

We'll see. They have to cut somebody to make room for Jackson. If they liked that cut guy enough to temporarily protect him on the roster it would stand to reason they'd be looking to put him on the PS.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's take a look.

Here are last season's punt returners sorted by number of returns to identify guys most regular in the role:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/puntReturns

1. Erickson - 24 returns as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/alex-erickson-1.html
2. Sherels - 17 returns over 3 years, 15 as a sophomore - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/marcus-sherels-1.html
3. Lockett - 32 returns over 3 years, 21 as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tyler-lockett-1.html
4. Jackson - 46 returns over 3 years, 44 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/adoree-jackson-1.html
5. Cooper - 36 returns over 3 years, 27 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/pharoh-cooper-1.html
6. Taylor - 58 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/trent-taylor-2.html
6. Peppers - 39 over 3 years, 38 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jabrill-peppers-1.html
8. Switzer - 99 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ryan-switzer-1.html
8. Agnew - 17 returns all in his senior year -http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3061612/jamal-agnew
8. Cohen - 1 return

With the exception of Cohen, all of these guys showed something and most had the aggregate equivalent of a full season or more.

Somebody else can look at the KO returners if so inclined. I would not be surprised me if the KO guys had less college experience. Punt returning involves a more difficult and subtle set of skills.

Good stuff Maynard....thanks for putting that together.

So am I to conclude, only 10 guys returning punts in the NFL last year had any college experience of doing so and one of them with only 1 return?

Seems like an after thought by many GM's during the draft then? Ron Zook is just told to "make the best out of one of the guys on the team". Granted, punt returning isn't rocket science, but as we have seen from many, including Davis, decision making is an important part of it. Davis, who did both kickoff and punt returns in College, which may have been the reason the Packers drafted him, needs to really be schooled on that aspect of his game, because it seems the Packers gave him a roster spot, strictly to return the ball.

 

[HardRightEdge]

How many NFL guys actually did much punt and kickoff returning in college?

Let's take a look.

Here are last season's punt returners sorted by number of returns to identify guys most regular in the role:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/puntReturns

1. Erickson - 24 returns as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/alex-erickson-1.html
2. Sherels - 17 returns over 3 years, 15 as a sophomore - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/marcus-sherels-1.html
3. Lockett - 32 returns over 3 years, 21 as a senior - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tyler-lockett-1.html
4. Jackson - 46 returns over 3 years, 44 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/adoree-jackson-1.html
5. Cooper - 36 returns over 3 years, 27 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/pharoh-cooper-1.html
6. Taylor - 58 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/trent-taylor-2.html
6. Peppers - 39 over 3 years, 38 in his last two seasons - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jabrill-peppers-1.html
8. Switzer - 99 returns over 4 years - https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ryan-switzer-1.html
8. Agnew - 17 returns all in his senior year -http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3061612/jamal-agnew
8. Cohen - 1 return, although it is a little odd to see 0 returns for 4 yards in one season - http://www.fcs.football/cfb/players.asp?id=234621

With the exception of Cohen, all of these guys showed something and most had the aggregate equivalent of a full season or more.

Somebody else can look at the KO returners if so inclined. I would not be surprised me if the KO guys had less college experience. Punt returning involves a more difficult and subtle set of skills.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We'll see. They have to cut somebody to make room for Jackson.

I don't think they do. They waived Herb Waters and put JK on IR earlier today so they still have one spot open, even with signing Jackson....I think.

 

[HardRightEdge]

So am I to conclude, only 10 guys returning punts in the NFL last year had any college experience of doing so and one of them with only 1 return?

C'mon, Dobie. Those are just the top 10 in number of returns last season, the "guys most regular in the role". I have no idea about the rest of them. If that's not enough of an illustration for you you're surely able to complete the job if so inclined.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

C'mon, Dobie. Those are just the top 10 in number of returns last season, the "guys most regular in the role". I have no idea about the rest of them. If that's not enough of an illustration for you you're surely able to complete the job if so inclined.

LOL....well when you include a guy with just 1 carry, I just assumed the data bank had run dry!!

I'm still going to go back to my original conclusion, if the Packers are willing to give Davis a roster spot just for his ability to return punts, then like they did with Hunter Bradley at LS, use a draft pick on the position and grab a guy that otherwise might be unnoticed for his skills at one of the 22 other positions. I'm guessing that teams do this and hinted at the Packers may have very well have done that with Davis when he was drafted, but if they did, I'm not so sure they hit their mark with him.

Still would be nice not to have to use a roster spot for a LS or a PR, but must be working in the NFL, because most teams seem to.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't think they do. They waived Herb Waters and put JK on IR earlier today so they still have one spot open, even with signing Jackson....I think.

I guess I was too busy answering your returner question.

So, there's a roster spot open. Getting a RB is checked off the list. What's next? Maybe a LB or safety.

The new RB, coming in cold with no NFL snaps, doesn't say much for Bouagnon. He could be gone and Waters to the PS. "Fluid" as Gutekunst has said.

 

[HardRightEdge]

LOL....well when you include a guy with just 1 carry, I just assumed the data bank had run dry!!

Dobie, Dobie, Dobie. Those are college returns for the guys with the most NFL returns last season. That guy with 1 college return was tied for 8th. most returns in the NFL last season. C'mon man. And they are returns, not carries, by the way.

Winding the clock back to some prior draft year and whether the Packers should or should not have drafted Davis or should or should not have drafted a return specialist is water under the bridge.

I wouldn't rule out Davis still getting cut if Gutekunst sees fit to scrounge up a returner with some kind of bona fides.