2024 draft discussion thread

gopkrs

Cheesehead
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
5,403
Reaction score
1,288
I'm liking that we are paying more attention to inside linebacking. If this guy was a standout on that Missouri team; he could be a playmaker. We should take their kicker at some point too. But now, back to the O line
 

AKCheese

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
2,357
Reaction score
747
If he honestly has 4.7 speed no way he’s a safety. I ran sub 4.9 50 years ago and was “a slow white guy”. (Actually got faster as I started college at 17). That said, whoever knows the least in the Packer draft room knows way more than any of us. They obviously have a plan for him, they didnt just throw a dart. Average 3rd rounder has a career of 2.8 seasons. Lets see what the plan is for him. Is it possible he still had lingering ankle issues at his pro day? I hope we move up in the 4th.
 

Thirteen Below

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 15, 2022
Messages
564
Reaction score
392
Hopper's athletic profile is underwhelming. A 4.68 40 speed is not going to keep up with near all RB's and a lot of TE's. Poor agility isn't impressive. Hard to swallow the fact that at this point, a 3rd round pick was spent on a guy who projects out to maybe a special teams player. With Walker, Cooper, Wilson and McDuffie ahead of him on the depth chart, Hopper may make the 53 and not suit up or potentially even be sent to the practice squad.
I really try to resist the temptation to call a pick a reach, because I don't know a fraction about these players as the real pros do. But sometimes, i can't help wondering... what the heck??? And this is that pick.

A couple of weeks ago, I did an (overly) detailed breakdown of Gute's drafting tendencies, and I was really struck by his 3rd Round patterns.

Briefly, he follows a very disciplined system with the first 2 rounds, with some very consistent patterns from which he rarely deviates - among them being he focuses on multi-year starters or heavy rotational contributors from the program of a major college football power (especially SEC, Big 10, or PAC 12), with an RAS either well above or very close to 9. And usually widely regarded as Day One or Early Day Two picks.

Average RAS in Round 1 is 9.28, average RAS in Round 2 is 9.07. He rarely departs from that pattern in Rounds 1 and 2. Jordan Love and Darnell Savage were the only two significant exceptions, and dragged the average 1st Round RAS down below 9.5.

Historically, Round 3 is the first round where he majorly deviates from that pattern - this is where he usually starts to feel comfortable looking at smaller college football programs, and not so much at RAS or multiple years as a starter. RAS is the most notable departure - average RAS drops from 9.28 in Round One and 9.07 in Round Two, to barely over 7 (which is artificially elevated by Tucker Kraft's highly abberant 9.68), with many of the 3rd Rounders scoring in the low 5's. 3rd Round is the first spot where he (sometimes) goes way out on a limb and takes a shot on someone nobody else saw coming.

If you look at the 3rd Round picks where Gutekunst bombed, the substantial majority are the ones where he deviated from his draft philosophy of Rounds One and Two. Almost all of them, in fact. And this seems to be the key factor in his so-called "3rd Round Curse".

Whereas, the 3rd Round picks that work out are almost without exception the picks that adhere to the same criteria he rigidly adheres to in the first two rounds - major football powerhouses, stellar RAS scores, right age range and level of demonstrated experience.

With his two 3rd Rounders this year, Marshawn Lloyd was a fastball right in the heart of the strike zone. Dead center on track with his historically successful pattern for the first 2 rounds; he fit every criteria for a player Gute would pick in Round 1 or Round 2, and the same pattern as the one 3rd Rounder he picked who was a solid success - Tucker Kraft.

The Hopper pick was largely in the same pattern as the 3rd Rounders who pancaked, including an RAS of 7.38. Almost 2 points below the 1st and 2nd Round average of 9.35, and a consensus projection roughly 2 rounds later.

So by this metric, Hopper was a reach when viewed though the filter of how Gute usually drafts in the first two days. He fits the profile of 3rd-rounders who fail, but Lloyd perfectly fits the profile of all early round players who not only succeed but excell.

How it turns out, too soon to tell. Will it be one of his very rare and very recent successful 3rd Rounds, or will it be another 3rd Round that makes us all wish he would just immediately trade every 3rd Round pick he gets his hands on for a 4th Rounder? Or, a mix of both?
 
Last edited:

Sanguine camper

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,955
Reaction score
582
I have Hooper in the 5th round of the Amish contest so he is obviously a 5th round talent not 6th.
The consensus board had him at 191 right in the middle of the 6th round. Whether he's rated as a 6th or 5th round pick, it was an egregious reach by Gute. Reaching is his Achilles heel and is one of the main reasons he has a poor record in rounds 1-3. The reason why he does a better job in the later rounds is because there isn't an 8th or 9th round to reach into. He tends to get much better value picking up guys that actual drop and pose the opposite scenario of a reach.
 

Sanguine camper

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,955
Reaction score
582
There are still some very intriguing projects left available in round 4. Bortolini from the Badgers, Olodapo or Hicks as safeties, Sedrick Van-Pran as a center from Georgia. This is the round where Gute needs to get aggressive and trade up to get Bortolini, Olodapo and or Van-Pran. If he sirs back until pick 126 the cupboard will likely be bare.
 

gopkrs

Cheesehead
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
5,403
Reaction score
1,288
There are still some very intriguing projects left available in round 4. Bortolini from the Badgers, Olodapo or Hicks as safeties, Sedrick Van-Pran as a center from Georgia. This is the round where Gute needs to get aggressive and trade up to get Bortolini, Olodapo and or Van-Pran. If he sirs back until pick 126 the cupboard will likely be bare.
I guess it's going to depend on what he thinks of those 3 and if he has other players or positions in mind. I'm thinking iol 2x and tackle and corner about now. Probably need to get some competition at back up QB.
 

AmishMafia

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
7,356
Reaction score
2,460
Location
PENDING
RickFlair mentioned the idea of him staying slim in the 220 range and playing safety.... That skill set at safety would be a punishing prospect for some of these slim WRs to face in the middle. And a good match up at 6'2" 220+- against these TEs.

I kinda love that tweener idea.
No telling what the new DC is envisioning for the defense but this sounds plausible.
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,475
Reaction score
1,808
The consensus board had him at 191 right in the middle of the 6th round. Whether he's rated as a 6th or 5th round pick, it was an egregious reach by Gute. Reaching is his Achilles heel and is one of the main reasons he has a poor record in rounds 1-3. The reason why he does a better job in the later rounds is because there isn't an 8th or 9th round to reach into. He tends to get much better value picking up guys that actual drop and pose the opposite scenario of a reach.
What's Gutekunst's hit rate in rounds 1-3 (adjusted for draft position in those rounds) and how does that rate compare to the other 31 teams?
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,475
Reaction score
1,808
There are still some very intriguing projects left available in round 4. Bortolini from the Badgers, Olodapo or Hicks as safeties, Sedrick Van-Pran as a center from Georgia. This is the round where Gute needs to get aggressive and trade up to get Bortolini, Olodapo and or Van-Pran. If he sirs back until pick 126 the cupboard will likely be bare.
Yeah? You've seen his board and know this for fact?
 

AmishMafia

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
7,356
Reaction score
2,460
Location
PENDING
So we missed on 2 players I think. Dejean in round 2. We immediately traded back after the "pick is in" came up. I am thinking he would have been the pick.

Then in round 3, Puni came off the board a couple of picks before ours. My ideal 3rd was Puni and Wright. Puni and Lloyd would have been fine as well. I think our run game would have been fearsome!
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,475
Reaction score
1,808
On a side note, I've counted 4 or 5 contest entries that are already in double digits with 13 being the best score so far.
 

AmishMafia

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
7,356
Reaction score
2,460
Location
PENDING
Yeah? You've seen his board and know this for fact?
As if Gute looks at his board in the late 3rd at 88 and 91 and sees 5 or 6 players he has rated in the top 50 or 60, but decides to grab a guy he had rated as the 140th best.

Some folks seem to think all teams work off the same list of players.
 

PackerDNA

Cheesehead
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
6,445
Reaction score
1,505
I like to read scouting reports and put together my list at position and overall in the two weeks before the draft. I just didn't have time this year, so I'm in the dark on a lot of these pics and way behind. One thing that struck me was Gute seem to be pretty decisive on his pics
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
32,436
Reaction score
8,088
Location
Madison, WI
Don’t get butt hurt you were disagreed with. You sound like you’re trying to talk yourself into liking the pick yourself for Christ sake. Right now they whiffed on it. Plain and simple.

How did they whiff on it? He hasn't even laced his shoes up for a practice yet.

I get that people have varying opinions on any topic, but sometimes its best to just let some facts actually play-out before being so dismissive of another opinion.
 

Schultz

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
2,843
Reaction score
1,626
Here is my latest thought on a Gute tendency. I bashed the Clifford pick last year as too early. Others pointed out a run on late round QBs and Gute probably did not want to miss out on a guy (position) even if he originally had him targeted later in the draft. IMO once T. Wallace was chosen Gute decided since he had already planned on doubling up at LB, since no-one else on his board screamed take me now he went and took his next highest LB even though it was earlier than he originally planned. Now we can debate who that LB should have been. I liked Gray and Trotter ahead of Hopper. I also liked Shipley and Wright at RB. The fact is Gute got the guys he liked.
 

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
14,097
Reaction score
4,975
Don’t get butt hurt you were disagreed with. You sound like you’re trying to talk yourself into liking the pick yourself for Christ sake. Right now they whiffed on it. Plain and simple.
it is impossible for anyone to say a pick was a whiff or a grand slam with such certainty. Believe all you want you have that special unicorn power…
 

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
14,097
Reaction score
4,975
If he honestly has 4.7 speed no way he’s a safety. I ran sub 4.9 50 years ago and was “a slow white guy”. (Actually got faster as I started college at 17). That said, whoever knows the least in the Packer draft room knows way more than any of us. They obviously have a plan for him, they didnt just throw a dart. Average 3rd rounder has a career of 2.8 seasons. Lets see what the plan is for him. Is it possible he still had lingering ankle issues at his pro day? I hope we move up in the 4th.
Gute double down in presser they clocked him at upper 4.5s

I assume that was at pro day
 

Pkrjones

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
3,844
Reaction score
1,757
Location
Northern IL
I really try to resist the temptation to call a pick a reach, because I don't know a fraction about these players as the real pros do. But sometimes, i can't help wondering... what the heck??? And this is that pick.

A couple of weeks ago, I did an (overly) detailed breakdown of Gute's drafting tendencies, and I was really struck by his 3rd Round patterns.

Briefly, he follows a very disciplined system with the first 2 rounds, with some very consistent patterns from which he rarely deviates - among them being he focuses on multi-year starters or heavy rotational contributors from the program of a major college football power (especially SEC, Big 10, or PAC 12), with an RAS either well above or very close to 9. And usually widely regarded as Day One or Early Day Two picks.

Average RAS in Round 1 is 9.28, average RAS in Round 2 is 9.07. He rarely departs from that pattern in Rounds 1 and 2. Jordan Love and Darnell Savage were the only two significant exceptions, and dragged the average 1st Round RAS down below 9.5.

Historically, Round 3 is the first round where he majorly deviates from that pattern - this is where he usually starts to feel comfortable looking at smaller college football programs, and not so much at RAS or multiple years as a starter. RAS is the most notable departure - average RAS drops from 9.28 in Round One and 9.07 in Round Two, to barely over 7 (which is artificially elevated by Tucker Kraft's highly abberant 9.68), with many of the 3rd Rounders scoring in the low 5's. 3rd Round is the first spot where he (sometimes) goes way out on a limb and takes a shot on someone nobody else saw coming.

If you look at the 3rd Round picks where Gutekunst bombed, the substantial majority are the ones where he deviated from his draft philosophy of Rounds One and Two. Almost all of them, in fact. And this seems to be the key factor in his so-called "3rd Round Curse".

Whereas, the 3rd Round picks that work out are almost without exception the picks that adhere to the same criteria he rigidly adheres to in the first two rounds - major football powerhouses, stellar RAS scores, right age range and level of demonstrated experience.

With his two 3rd Rounders this year, Marshawn Lloyd was a fastball right in the heart of the strike zone. Dead center on track with his historically successful pattern for the first 2 rounds; he fit every criteria for a player Gute would pick in Round 1 or Round 2, and the same pattern as the one 3rd Rounder he picked who was a solid success - Tucker Kraft.

The Hopper pick was largely in the same pattern as the 3rd Rounders who pancaked, including an RAS of 7.38. Almost 2 points below the 1st and 2nd Round average of 9.35, and a consensus projection roughly 2 rounds later.

So by this metric, Hopper was a reach when viewed though the filter of how Gute usually drafts in the first two days. He fits the profile of 3rd-rounders who fail, but Lloyd perfectly fits the profile of all early round players who not only succeed but excell.

How it turns out, too soon to tell. Will it be one of his very rare and very recent successful 3rd Rounds, or will it be another 3rd Round that makes us all wish he would just immediately trade every 3rd Round pick he gets his hands on for a 4th Rounder? Or, a mix of both?
Great breakdown of Gute's 1-3 round picks. Are there any tendencies 4-7?
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
12,096
Reaction score
3,015
No matter who they were gonna take, they were going to run up to the podium with their next pick after Detroit moved ahead of them imho.

If Arnold had been their target, I would think that we would have seen them go cornerback at some point on day 2.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
12,096
Reaction score
3,015
Not sure I agree. When a top prospect falls down the picks, then it's a steal for whoever lands him, not a ding on the player himself. AR12 is a prime example of this.

When the rankers grade a pick, it's relative to when he's expected to go in a draft....not because of specific team needs.

Ignoring the order of picks ....who would have the biggest difference in the team, DeJean or Morgan? I'm inclined to say the former. And I certainly believe we'd have a chance of landing Morgan in R2.

Players who fall way below their projected draft slot can still be successful, but what their slide tells us is that the league didn't like them as much as the media. So it's very much a ding on the player himself. When Rodgers tumbled, the league was saying that they didn't have a very high grade on him. Obviously he proved them wrong, but he also sat and developed for three seasons.

Consider Josh Jackson. In the 2018 draft, he was #16 overall by consensus. The Packers got a "steal" when he fell to #45. As it turned out, it wasn't really a steal. He was just a limited player-- the league knew it and the media didn't. Green Bay got to a point in round 2 where they decided it was worth the dice roll and he flopped.

Tony Pauline reported that Washington tried to trade back into the first round to take Morgan. Jerry Jones said that Morgan was on their short list of players for their first pick. The Packers actually chose Morgan at #25 when, reportedly, they had trade down offers. All of that carries a lot more weight to me than where the consensus board had him.

I just think that Packers fans spent months being told that DeJean was the obvious fit when there was never any real compelling evidence for that being the case.
 

DoURant

Go Pack Go!
Joined
Mar 25, 2017
Messages
835
Reaction score
314
Location
Michigan
If Arnold had been their target, I would think that we would have seen them go cornerback at some point on day 2.
They might feel good about Stokes for 2024. I guess when we finally hear about his 5th year option in the next few days, that will really tell us the answer.
 

David Ciembronowicz

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
109
Reaction score
48
Location
iron river
The GM may have read too many press clippings about how his drafting last year and the year before "turned out so well". Wait and see for sure however, some of these picks seem to have been a stretch to say the least and questions abound as to whether they "fit" needs for difference makers and even for back-ups.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
12,096
Reaction score
3,015
As for the picks today, some thoughts:

-I don't believe the Packers were actually ever interested in DeJean or McKinstry. The former doesn't really surprise me. I don't really see it with DeJean and Hafley's defense. The latter I'm more surprised by, but they just don't seem to feel a big need at cornerback.

-Edgerrin Cooper was one of my favorite players in this draft. I think it's telling, too, that he was LB1 and LB2 didn't come off the board until pick #69. He was head and shoulders the best guy in this class. He is more similar to Walker than he is a complement. Gutekunst sort of telegraphed this some weeks ago when he said that he wants two starting linebackers who can be used interchangeably.

-Javon Bullard is exactly the kind of safety that Gutekunst described a couple days ago to the media-- can play in the box and in the post and cover be used in the slot. What's funny is that his comments were interpreted by everyone to be referring to DeJean because everyone had such tunnel vision with him. Bullard wasn't on my radar because I was more expecting them to draft a true SS body type. However, he seems like a good, versatile guy. I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a big box safety today so that they can use big nickel with Bullard in the slot.

-I'm glad they improved the offensive backfield. Wright was the guy I had my eye on, but Lloyd brings similar big play ability. I would theorize that they prefer the latter's size and, thereby, his ability to be the lead guy in the case of an injury.

-I figured on them taking a second linebacker in this draft. I even expected it to be Hopper. I just didn't think it would be so soon. Whatever that case, Hopper seems like a good athlete with a lot of downhill aggression who will be able to make a living on teams until he's needed on defense.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
12,096
Reaction score
3,015
Lowkey win from this draft so far:

That arrogant little Irish guy who works for PFF had Troy Franklin as his WR4 and now he's still available on day 3.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
32,436
Reaction score
8,088
Location
Madison, WI
With all the hand wringing over "Gute's 3rd round", because I have done it too, does anyone know what the average "success" rate for a 3rd rounder in the NFL even is? The reason I ask is this, maybe Gute knows that the rate is rather low. So when he gets to the 3rd round if he has a guy on his board that he absolutely 100% wants and feels there is a good chance that guy won't be around for 32 or more picks later, he just goes for it. Not saying this is the right approach or that he is successful with it, but lets face it, after the 2nd round, you are getting into a pool of players that probably every GM has a very different opinion of.
 

Members online

Top