Free Agency Thread

[Heyjoe4]

I never said no to CB.

I said I think the chances of CB are such that betting against it makes good sense.

Ok then as long as you allow for the chance they may take a CB, there is nothing to bet on. You've covered all your bases. It was fun while it lasted!

 

[El Guapo]

That's why I will always consider AJ Hawk a very successful pick.

I agree 100% and Hawk is the perfect example.

He played his game in college and at some point, a pro team was going to decide what he was "worth" and draft him in a certain spot. He had no control over it. Had he fallen to the 2nd or 3rd round, maybe more fans would truly appreciate what he accomplished.

It's like overpaying for a Chevy Nova. It's not the Nova's fault that you paid too much and then had higher expectations. It is what it is. Back to football, the higher draft slot often means that you don't get the needed luxury of sitting on the bench for a year and learning from your elders. You get thrown into the fire and then instantly judged. I would NEVER ever want to be a first round pick. To use a NASCAR analogy, I'd rather start from the back and work my way through the field instead of letting everyone take their shots at me from the green flag.

 

[Half Empty]

I agree 100% and Hawk is the perfect example.

He played his game in college and at some point, a pro team was going to decide what he was "worth" and draft him in a certain spot. He had no control over it. Had he fallen to the 2nd or 3rd round, maybe more fans would truly appreciate what he accomplished.

In line with the general theme of the discussion, there's no way anyone could not agree with the whole last sentence. Some (maybe just me?) have felt, though, that he was a hard-working, lunch-pail kind of guy who made a bunch of downfield tackles with not a whole lot of impact. Perhaps I just need to know more about the highlighted part - what did he do beyond consistently showing up for work and knocking down the guys who heading his way?

 

[gopkrs]

We can talk about what if we took him in the 3rd or whatever. We took him 5th overall. I was happy at the time and bought a jersey for my daughter, but ultimately felt disappointed. I think he played much better at the college level. Basically, he was replaceable.

 

[DoURant]

Hawk's best ability over that 10 years, was "Availability" He suited up every week

 

[tynimiller]

We can talk about what if we took him in the 3rd or whatever. We took him 5th overall. I was happy at the time and bought a jersey for my daughter, but ultimately felt disappointed. I think he played much better at the college level. Basically, he was replaceable.

Sorry but fervently disagree. A guy doesn’t play that many years as a starter that was replaceable.

Hawk may be the most wrongfully talked about Packer in my short lifetime.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Sorry but fervently disagree. A guy doesn’t play that many years as a starter that was replaceable.

Hawk may be the most wrongfully talked about Packer in my short lifetime.

AJ didn't live up to his draft status, but he was a good maybe above-average player for GB. I liked Bishop better, unfortunately, his career ended rather quickly with injuries.

 

[Schultz]

AJ didn't live up to his draft status, but he was a good maybe above-average player for GB. I liked Bishop better, unfortunately, his career ended rather quickly with injuries.

That's why I liked Hawk better. His didn't.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Come on. How can anyone look at the AJ Hawk pick and subsequent career in GB and say anything but "The Packers got more then expected and invested into AJ"? He played 9 seasons in GB and was a starter from DAY 1.

Once you get a starter, to a second contract, especially one that had contributed like AJ did for 4 years on a rookie deal, he was an investment that paid off, no matter WHEN you drafted him.

Anyone thinking otherwise should pan through the last 30 years of 1st round drafting and note the top 10 players selected and how their careers went.

 

[gopkrs]

Come on. How can anyone look at the AJ Hawk pick and subsequent career in GB and say anything but "The Packers got more then expected and invested into AJ"? He played 9 seasons in GB and was a starter from DAY 1.

Once you get a starter, to a second contract, especially one that had contributed like AJ did for 4 years on a rookie deal, he was an investment that paid off, no matter WHEN you drafted him.

Anyone thinking otherwise should pan through the last 30 years of 1st round drafting and note the top 10 players selected and how their careers went.

It really kind of depends on if you agree with the assessment of the coaches. I don't know how much they paid him but sometimes they just think that well, that's a position we can stay at because we have greater needs elsewhere or we are not going to value that position very high. I always want a stud linebacker. He was not one and a lot of people disagree with me on both points. Just like they did on the guy before Bishop who should never have been in the middle.

 

[Half Empty]

Pretend you don't know who we're talking about. If someone just told you there's a LB with the following PER YEAR stats with a team, how impressed would you be (overall, not even to mention the 5th overall pick)?

INT 1
FF .5
FR .5
Sack 2
TFL 6+
QB hits 4
DPOY 3rd
PB 1 (2010)
T (nobody argues with these) 105 (71/34)

 

[gopkrs]

Really, I don't go by stats. I go by my eye for a team like The Packers who I always watch. Not to say I am not sometimes surprised by a particular stat that can have me reevaluate my opinion. But stats are padded by the other players around you, the type of defense employed, and just where you are put on the field...a lot of things. Tackles made are not all equal. Some are stud tackles that affects a whole defense and some are made 5 yards passed the los with an eight yard gain. But they all get a 1 for a tackle. I hope never to see the team with the best computer analyst who has studied football for a year and loves correlating statistics, come to be the guy that wins football games. They have their place of course. And I like to look at them sometimes. But I really go by what I see on the field for The Packers.

 

[Heyjoe4]

In line with the general theme of the discussion, there's no way anyone could not agree with the whole last sentence. Some (maybe just me?) have felt, though, that he was a hard-working, lunch-pail kind of guy who made a bunch of downfield tackles with not a whole lot of impact. Perhaps I just need to know more about the highlighted part - what did he do beyond consistently showing up for work and knocking down the guys who heading his way?

Hawk was another Packer ILB who could make a ton of tackles, but very few for loss. This is frowned upon by a lot of people, including me. But when we look at what happens when tackles are missed (yeah I'm looking at you Darnell Savage), it takes on a different meaning. Hawk was a lot like Blake Martinez, another tackling machine but taken in a more appropriate round (I think it was third).

Hey, LBs have to tackle, no doubt. But I'd like for the ILBs to become more aggressive in the run and pass game. Quay Walker is a very gifted athlete who can do a lot more than he's been asked. I'm not expecting Micah Parsons, but do think Hafley can do a lot more with him, as well as McDuffie and anyone they draft. A good ILB should be able to blitz on occasion, stop the run on a regular basis, and ideally, drop into coverage. Let's see what Hafley can do.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hawk was another Packer ILB who could make a ton of tackles, but very few for loss.

I could be wrong, but an ILB that isn't doing a lot of blitzing because of the defense he plays on, isn't going to make a lot of tackles for loss.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I could be wrong, but an ILB that isn't doing a lot of blitzing because of the defense he plays on, isn't going to make a lot of tackles for loss.

Yeah and that describes Hawk and Martinez. They never struck me as guys who were capable of blitzing, or just not that good at it. They were run stoppers or guys who could prevent big runs. As far as the draft, Hawk was a reach and Martinez was a decent value.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As far as the draft, Hawk was a reach and Martinez was a decent value.

Yet, Hawk had a better career than Martinez, so at the end of the day, who would you rather have on your team?

I can't remember what I thought of Hawk back in 2006, but he is much like a lot of players drafted from successful programs like Ohio State. Lots of good players around them and possibly that boosts their draft position more than it should. Maybe if Hawk had better players around him in Green Bay, he's a perennial Pro Bowler? At the end of the day (career), Hawk started for 9 seasons and left with a Super Bowl ring. Guessing he considers himself has having a pretty successful career, despite his draft position.

Dallas drafted Hawks teammate and LB at OSU, Bobby Carpenter, at #18 in that same draft. Carpenter was never that good in the NFL and I would call a bust, despite being in the NFL for 7 season with 5 different teams.

Here is Round 1 in 2006. Some turned out good, some were "busts". I think the Packers fared much better than a lot of teams.

1	Houston Texans	Mario Williams DE, North Carolina State
2	New Orleans Saints	Reggie Bush rb, Southern California
3	Tennessee Titans	Vince Young qb, texas
4	New York Jets	D'Brickashaw Ferguson t, Virginia
5	Green Bay packers	A.J. Hawk oLB, Ohio State
6	San Francisco 49ers	Vernon Davis Te, Maryland
7	Oakland Raiders	Michael Huff ss, Texas
8	Buffalo Bills	Donte Whitner ss, Ohio State
9	Detroit Lions	Ernie Sims olb, Florida State
10	Arizona Cardinals	Matt Leinart qb, Southern California
11	Denver Broncos1	Jay Cutler qb, Vanderbilt
12	Baltimore Ravens2	Haloti Ngata dt, Oregon
13	Cleveland Browns3	Kamerion Wimbley olb, Florida State
14	Philadelphia Eagles	Broderick Bunkley dt, Florida State
15	St. Louis Rams4	Tye Hill cb, Clemson
16	Miami Dolphins	Jason Allen fs, Tennessee
17	Minnesota Vikings	Chad Greenway lb, Iowa
18	Dallas Cowboys	Bobby Carpenter ilb, Ohio State
19	San Diego Chargers	Antonio Cromartie cb, Florida State
20	Kansas City Chiefs	Tamba Hali de, Penn State
21	New England Patriots	Laurence Maroney rb, Minnesota
22	San Francisco 49ers	Manny Lawson olb, North Carolina State
23	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Davin Joseph g, Oklahoma
24	Cincinnati Bengals	Johnathan Joseph cb, South Carolina
25	Pittsburgh Steelers5	Santonio Holmes wr, Ohio State
26	Buffalo Bills	John McCargo dt, North Carolina State
27	Carolina Panthers	DeAngelo Williams rb, Memphis
28	Jacksonville Jaguars	Marcedes Lewis te, UCLA
29	New York Jets	Nick Mangold c, Ohio State
30	Indianapolis Colts	Joseph Addai rb, Louisiana State
31	Seattle Seahawks	Kelly Jennings cb, Miami
32	New York Giants6	Mathias Kiwanuka de, Boston College

 

[Schultz]

Yet, Hawk had a better career than Martinez, so at the end of the day, who would you rather have on your team?

I can't remember what I thought of Hawk back in 2006, but he is much like a lot of players drafted from successful programs like Ohio State. Lots of good players around them and possibly that boosts their draft position more than it should. Maybe if Hawk had better players around him in Green Bay, he's a perennial Pro Bowler? At the end of the day (career), Hawk started for 9 seasons and left with a Super Bowl ring. Guessing he considers himself has having a pretty successful career, despite his draft position.

Dallas drafted Hawks teammate and LB at OSU, Bobby Carpenter, at #18 in that same draft. Carpenter was never that good in the NFL and I would call a bust, despite being in the NFL for 7 season with 5 different teams.

Here is Round 1 in 2006. Some turned out good, some were "busts". I think the Packers fared much better than a lot of teams.

1	Houston Texans	Mario Williams DE, North Carolina State
2	New Orleans Saints	Reggie Bush rb, Southern California
3	Tennessee Titans	Vince Young qb, texas
4	New York Jets	D'Brickashaw Ferguson t, Virginia
5	Green Bay packers	A.J. Hawk oLB, Ohio State
6	San Francisco 49ers	Vernon Davis Te, Maryland
7	Oakland Raiders	Michael Huff ss, Texas
8	Buffalo Bills	Donte Whitner ss, Ohio State
9	Detroit Lions	Ernie Sims olb, Florida State
10	Arizona Cardinals	Matt Leinart qb, Southern California
11	Denver Broncos1	Jay Cutler qb, Vanderbilt
12	Baltimore Ravens2	Haloti Ngata dt, Oregon
13	Cleveland Browns3	Kamerion Wimbley olb, Florida State
14	Philadelphia Eagles	Broderick Bunkley dt, Florida State
15	St. Louis Rams4	Tye Hill cb, Clemson
16	Miami Dolphins	Jason Allen fs, Tennessee
17	Minnesota Vikings	Chad Greenway lb, Iowa
18	Dallas Cowboys	Bobby Carpenter ilb, Ohio State
19	San Diego Chargers	Antonio Cromartie cb, Florida State
20	Kansas City Chiefs	Tamba Hali de, Penn State
21	New England Patriots	Laurence Maroney rb, Minnesota
22	San Francisco 49ers	Manny Lawson olb, North Carolina State
23	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Davin Joseph g, Oklahoma
24	Cincinnati Bengals	Johnathan Joseph cb, South Carolina
25	Pittsburgh Steelers5	Santonio Holmes wr, Ohio State
26	Buffalo Bills	John McCargo dt, North Carolina State
27	Carolina Panthers	DeAngelo Williams rb, Memphis
28	Jacksonville Jaguars	Marcedes Lewis te, UCLA
29	New York Jets	Nick Mangold c, Ohio State
30	Indianapolis Colts	Joseph Addai rb, Louisiana State
31	Seattle Seahawks	Kelly Jennings cb, Miami
32	New York Giants6	Mathias Kiwanuka de, Boston College

Thanks for the list. My 1st thought is who do you guys think had a better career, Hawk or Big Dog?

 

[sschind]

Since Hawk was that early of a pick I would call it a 2 out triple. If he was day 2 then IMO that would have been a lead-off triple.

****…if Hawk had been a day 2 pick and you got that career out him, I call than a three run homerun.

His career was his career. It doesn't matter where he was drafted. I get that the higher the pick the higher the expectations we have from them but does it really matter? If we draft a CB in the first round and he busts but the one we drafted in the seventh round becomes an all pro I really don't care.

 

[Heyjoe4]

His career was his career. It doesn't matter where he was drafted. I get that the higher the pick the higher the expectations we have from them but does it really matter? If we draft a CB in the first round and he busts but the one we drafted in the seventh round becomes an all pro I really don't care.

Hawk and Martinez kinda blend together in my memory. Very capable tacklers, very few big mistakes, but one-dimensional at the position. No analogies. I'll just say neither guy is going to the HOF. They weren't JAGs. They were above average NFL LBs. Hawk was a little better. His career just tailed off kinda early. I think Martinez is making millions selling Pokemon cards and Hawk is a regular on Pat McAfee. Good for them.

And yeah, if a guy becomes an elite player, who really cares where he was drafted? Good point.

 

[lambeaulambo]

AJ Hawk was definitely a ham and egger. Gotta have good lunch pale guys that can tackle 7 yds down the field. His longevity is his legacy. He couldnt cover a TE if he knew the route he was running.

 

[Heyjoe4]

AJ Hawk was definitely a ham and egger. Gotta have good lunch pale guys that can tackle 7 yds down the field. His longevity is his legacy. He couldnt cover a TE if he knew the route he was running.

Great description of Hawk. It used to bother me that these guys would hang there hat on having the most tackles in a season, when most of the tackles were after gains. But after seeing some truly bad tackling by the Packers in an otherwise solid 2023 season, tackling a guy for a 7-yard gain is much better than not getting him to the turf at all.

I don't know about Hawk, but think Martinez had at least one season as the leading tackler. It is, as you allude, "ham and egg" stuff but hey, someone has to tackle.

The role of the ILB has certainly shifted. Now these guys are expected to blitz now and then, expected to drop into coverage, and oh yeah, to make tackles and slow the running game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thanks for the list. My 1st thought is who do you guys think had a better career, Hawk or Big Dog?

AJ or Zadarius?

Two different positions, two different careers with the Packers. Kind of like asking "Apple or orange?" Plus, I really didn' watch much of Z-Dog, if any before he was a Packer and only 2 games since (Viking games).

From a Packer fan perspective, I would 100% say that AJ was the better player (for the Packers).

 

[Schultz]

Big Dog is Mercedes Lewis. He was on your list as pick # 28 to JAX.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Big Dog is Mercedes Lewis. He was on your list as pick # 28 to JAX.

Ahhh....THAT big dog!

I guess I would say almost the same thing as I did about Za'Darius. I didn't follow Mercedes career before coming to or leaving GB, so hard for me to say. Decent player while here, but for a completely different roll. Had the Packers drafted Lewis in 2006, instead of Hawk, could have changed everything that happened to the Packers after that point (Butterfly effect). In just looking at his stats, he had a very solid career in Jacksonville, with what appears to be not so great teams and QB's.

 

[DoURant]

I had to do a double take when I saw this... good luck moving forward Kevin King